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Epos ES 14 N - best passive Speaker in SpiNorama.org so far? (7.4/10 with equalisation without subwoofer)

I have a pair of non-meta LS50's. With a little EQ {especially at 2.5k Hz) and 2 Rythmik L12 subs crossed over at 100 Hz, they can really sing. The subs and modest size room allow for reference volume playback without strain, even with the small 5" mid/woofer. A MIniDSP 2x4HD is used for crossover, delay and EQ.
Cool Stuff - but I am afraid, my wife won‘t accept a subwoofer in the sleeping room! I can be happy if she accepted the Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX or the Epos ES 14 N.
Now I’m using the Sonos Play: 1 in Stereo Configuration with very nice stands, but many speakers would sound better / with more Authority. E.g. the Magnat Monitor Active 2000 for EUR 199,— / Pair which I bought for my son as a Desktop speaker in February…….. and refused to give him for his room for two months ha ha ha ha!

By the way: Magnat also uses the Klippel NFS and Laserinterferometer.
 

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@totti1965 my view is the bedroom is for sleeping and other things usually done on a bed. Without a sub forget anything with less than a 6" mid/woofer. Maybe you should be looking for a pair of slim towers. They actually take less floor space than bookshelf's on stands. Revel F206's have lots of authority and a high preference score.
 
I'll bite -

Decent reproduction of speech IS important for our listening as we've evolved our hearing around human voices primarily. Get that wrong and although I daresay some of us can adapt (most men are tone deaf apparently), it makes for more concentrated and sometimes more fatiguing listening for pleasure at home.

Forget LS3/5A's! They were designed to magnify distortion and hiss in a BBC OB van initially (told me by one of the design team back then) and pleasurable music reproduction was NOT part of their initial portfolio. the fact that an entire sub-sect of 'audiophiles' worship the bloody things beats me frankly, but they do and my local dealer praises the current Falcon model's 'detail' when I winced and had to leave the room....

My Harbeths from 2007 also have a slight dip in the lower kHz region engineered in and also, a slightly more 'organic' subjective bass tone compared to the current Plus and XD variants. These things were done deliberately to enable long term listening without fatigue, starting with speech reproduction (which I do a hell of a lot these days playing audio-books) and also I reckon to aid lower level listening (something else I do more now as my hearing can't take very high levels now any more than my next door neighbour can!). Sure, the remaining audiophool in me would like a more 'tactile' reproduction as the best active speakers can give, but looking at the ragged upper mid responses of so many models here (to hell with 'directivity' for a moment!), I'm not sure I want to trade pretty accurate timbres of midrange instruments for a hyper 'detailed' ragged noise, no matter how these speakers are crossed over or amplified!

As for the Harbeth P3, it's a delightful small box to listen to music through. It can go much louder than a LS3/5A can before audible complaint and it 'does' brushed cymbals just as one hears them live (not the one-note 'shhhh' sound some other boxes can give). yes, I agree they're very expensive, but believe me, their owners adore them and tend to hang on to them as well. Yes, it's expensive now, but many people even here can afford such expense without stressing their bank balances.

Seriously fellas, a flat Klippel style response and directivity isn't the entire picture and subjective fine tuning of crossover points and driver levels as well as phase tracking is important as well. LISTENING to the sodding things is vital really for the final 'tuning' of the blending of disparate drivers and obviously the box they're fitted in as well.
A study by Texas A&M University using nuclear magnetic resonance and infrared spectroscopy to analyze the Stradivari violins’ wood, concluded that metallic salts may have played a role in these instruments’ nuanced tones. The Stradivari and Guarneri magic has also been proven to be contributed by varnishes and oils:


The human perception of sound is not as well understood as some people believe and arguably not fully determined by speaker directivity and dispersion. Active studio monitors are far from being the ultimate speaker designs (and amplifications per se) and some of these passive speaker producers' R&D budgets alone exceed ASM company balance sheet sizes many times over. A forum will not qualify as "scientific" by definition if it started looking like a Genelec/Neumann sales pitcher.
 
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Actually you will find they are the ‘last word’ in speaker design.
Passives are still made because they are simpler and they fulfil the ‘upgrade’ paradigm so beloved by manufacturers retailers and hi-fi ‘journalism’
Keith
 
Actually you will find they are the ‘last word’ in speaker design.
With all due respect, scientific knowledge is inherently provisional, subject to refinement, and potentially subject to modification or even refutation in light of new evidence! "Last word" doesn't fit in it.

Newton's laws were the last word in gravity verified by repeatable experiments up until it was proven wrong by Einstein's general relativity which was later again proven wrong by the reconciliation of quantum mechanics.
 
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Actually you will find they are the ‘last word’ in speaker design.
Passives are still made because they are simpler and they fulfil the ‘upgrade’ paradigm so beloved by manufacturers retailers and hi-fi ‘journalism’
Keith
Hifi is not about hearing the accurate sound alone. It’s a game of aesthetics, weight, brand value and complicating things. People love their equipments even when are turned off. It’s not an instrument just for producing the sound!
 
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By the way: Magnat also uses the Klippel NFS and Laserinterferometer.
and still they have very mediocre speakers. This is what I told before, companies can afford stuff for marketing reasons. But to use it right, they need to know how to get the best out of it.
 
and still they have very mediocre speakers. This is what I told before, companies can afford stuff for marketing reasons. But to use it right, they need to know how to get the best out of it.
I am sure they know. But Magnat makes mostly relative inexpensive speakers. There is nothing wrong with it, imo.
 
Actually you will find they are the ‘last word’ in speaker design.
Passives are still made because they are simpler and they fulfil the ‘upgrade’ paradigm so beloved by manufacturers retailers and hi-fi ‘journalism’
Keith
There is a long thread about active vs passive. It's a lot more complicated than what you say.
 
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I have a question, because there is always talk of Klippel NFS. Can you also use it to measure somewhat larger speakers such as the Klangfilm Bionor e.g.?


bionor-opening-900x600.jpg
 
I have a question, because there is always talk of Klippel NFS. Can you also use it to measure somewhat larger speakers such as the Klangfilm Bionor e.g.?


bionor-opening-900x600.jpg
Shouldn't that one be in a large auditorium such as a cinema? That pic is ridiculous frankly imo...
 
That pic is ridiculous frankly imo...
Ha Ha, you might think so. In fact, these and similar speakers are among my absolute favourites! I could listen to them more often, even in stereo. In fact, they don't sound like small modern studio monitors. I couldn't set one of that size up myself, but I had already done some experiments with larger horns.
 
Shouldn't that one be in a large auditorium such as a cinema? That pic is ridiculous frankly imo...
That thing would sing with a Topping amp in bridged mono mode!
 
Sure, you can have. One of the tests was with a cabinet on one side using a standard MDF panel and the other one with the same thickness panels but done with constrained layer damping (two layers, damping in the middle). The cabinet was a smaller 2-way, so no other internal bracing was used.

But this is the problem here at ASR: Whatever I say, somebody says something like "I don't feel like" - like you did above. On one hand, people are screaming for blind A/B test, but never did anything themselves to prove their own theory.

This is nothing against you.....but think about it and read some of the comments to understand why I'm turning around and walking away.

I have no problem discussing with people who have worked on the same things as we did here. It's only difficult to discuss with people who are biased in one direction and turn whatever argument does not fit into their world down with "I don't believe, show me the AB test".
well to some extreme I would say just like flat earthers, when things are biased it goes to extremes, but personally, I have no insult, just the explaination didn't get over my logic, say for the highlighted part, I am sure that would sound different, as damping was done, and sometimes even say, smooth/lined port could sound different as it can cancel out the port chuff. but also, in those case which was in my very early days of some noob DIY crap, the measurement did become different after some linings are added. I am not saying the material or weight of speaker cabinets would make no difference, what I am not getting is that sound is just physics, air vibrates and pressure waves reaching our ear drums and we hear the sound (and the mic measure it also), so if anything was audibly changed, it have to be measurable, maybe not in on axis plot, but maybe some resonance messy but tiny peaks and dips, maybe off axis gets messy.

Or even say, if the design excelled in on axis FR and have perfect directivity, and the excelled resonance is then pulled down aggressively by EQ, it could show up in weird distortion spike, or RT60 plot. Or another extreme, assuming one cabinet have zero "through the walls" sound emitting out, and another one have excessive through the wall sound, it have to have different directivity plot, as one only beams forward and the one with no blockage walls would become omnidirectional extra sound emitting out,

What I don't get/ was curious was not that same design, same thickness, just different side panel construction material would sound different, but that it will sound different AND not being measurable. I know that in the early days of measurement, ppl only measure on axis FR, so with directivity error messing up with final sound, it is more often than not on axis flat speakers sound like crap. but nowadays the plots done in SPINs are so complicated it have to affect one plot or another for it to be audible.

Please also understand here quite some members have had enough of some really huge snake oil designer BS, say the various directional cables.... and in various tests/auditions I've had the pleasure to join, I have yet to experience anything not measurable but audible difference, personal difference is another thing, Harman research is only a general trend of preference, which can differ a lot from one to another person, but more often than not what I personally found was that the mic is 100% of the time more sensitive to our ears, I've only experienced differences measurable but not audible but not vice versa
 
The Stradivari and Guarneri magic has also been proven to be contributed by varnishes and oils:
It’s also not clear that “the magic” is all it’s cracked up to be (I’m deliberately linking a response by one of the subjects here, for some balance):


It doesn’t seem like this analogy is on point enough to declare speaker measurements inadequate. But that is a topic for another thread.
The human perception of sound is not as well understood as some people believe and arguably not fully determined by speaker directivity and dispersion.
Correct, not only because distortion and FR count, but due to psychoacoustics and our very malleable selective attention. However the behavior of sound, and the scope of phenomena that are strictly audible is far better understood. Measurements are quite accurate in telling you what the speaker does, not how individuals in different situations will then interpret it In conjunction with lots of other stimuli.
 
First listen to these yourself and compare them with other good speakers side by side - I would say. What looks great on paper sometimes doesn't sound so great at home.
On good on paper means it’s accurate to the signal coming in. If that’s what you need, you may find it not appealing. But most people here strive for lab level accuracy so, I would just pick up something based on measurements alone and call it a day
 
No, they don't. They have a classic Klippel system but not the Laser scanner or the NFS. Or they must have bought it three months ago or so. ;)
Oh, but they make the claim on their website. They speak about Lasertechnology. Hopfully they don’t lie!
This short text is directly from the Magnat Site (and was there also in February):

magnat-pictos2017_lasergestuetztes-klippel-mess-system.jpg


Klippel-optimiertes System​

LASERGESTÜTZTE MESSUNGEN​



Zur Entwicklung und Konstruktion eines hochwertigen Lautsprechers braucht es viele verschiedene Dinge: Talent, Erfahrung, Herzblut, eine profunde Kenntnis physikalischer und akustischer Gesetze sowie eine ganze Reihe weiterer Qualifikationen. All das haben unsere Entwicklungsingenieure. Damit sie ihre enorme Expertise optimal umsetzen können, arbeiten sie ausschließlich mit hochwertigsten Entwicklungswerkzeugen. Eines davon ist das sogenannte Klippel-System. Dieses lasergestützte Mess- und Simulationssystem ermöglicht bereits während des laufenden Entwicklungsprozesses Messungen und Vorhersagen zu den finalen Lautsprechereigenschaften mit unvergleichlicher Präzision. Im Endergebnis entstehen so Lautsprecher, die wesentlich verzerrungsärmer, detailreicher und dynamischer aufspielen, als solche, die mit konventionellen Systemen vermessen wurden.
 
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