Man in the ear - possible speaker upgrade?

[Paffi]

Hi there,

I´m currently thinking of possible upgrades regarding speakers. Currently I have an Apollon Purifi 1ET400mini driving a pair of KEF LS50 metas with crossover for bass duties to four wallmounted subs in dba configuration. Listening distance is 2,5m.

I´m not really unsatisfied with my current setup but curious to further explore the limits ("man in the ear"). Maybe it´s possible to increase the "attac" and a little bit more dynamics, also I would like to have a kind of "bigger" sound.

On my watch are several speakers, passive as well as active. The technique doesn´t matter to me, I have no preference regarding that and simply pick that, what sounds best to me.

• Epos ES14n from @Karl-Heinz Fink (Unfortunately no possibility for listening as there is no retailer for it in my surrounding; Also not sure how the vertical directivity works, I think I like the directivity of coax... But I like the looks and have some sympathies for the engineer, which also plays a role for me)
• Mofi Sourcepoint 8 (I´m not sure if I like the looks, at the pictures it looks a little bit cheap when it comes to the finish; they are also pretty expensive in europe compared to the US)
• GGNTKT M1 (I´m curious how the cardiod bass will integrate with my subs; looks is also great)
• ME Geithain RL903K (also cardiod but fully analog; Not sure If I like class AB amps, they are powerhungry and heating the room; kind of ugly)
• Sigbergaudio SBS.1 (somehow I have no good feeling with expensive speakers from a small new company - Don´t know how long it will exist and the price discount for used products are usually high / low value stability. Also no possibility to test them riskfree)
• Nubert NuZeo 4
• The upcoming Ascilab speakers (the same as for sigbergaudio, small unknown company with probably low value stability)

I´m interested what people think about these speakers - Has somebody already experience with some of these speakers?

Maybe I should also take a look at PA-speakers with Horns, I´m curious how the would sound in comparison.

Tomorrow I will listen to the Geithain and the GGNTK.


Greetings from Germany,

Paffi

 

[staticV3]

Very curious about the M1 personally (although still far out of my budget).

Please keep us posted!

 

[kemmler3D]

Hi there,

I´m currently thinking of possible upgrades regarding speakers. Currently I have an Apollon Purifi 1ET400mini driving a pair of KEF LS50 metas with crossover for bass duties to four wallmounted subs in dba configuration. Listening distance is 2,5m.

I´m not really unsatisfied with my current setup but curious to further explore the limits ("man in the ear"). Maybe it´s possible to increase the "attac" and a little bit more dynamics, also I would like to have a kind of "bigger" sound.

On my watch are several speakers, passive as well as active. The technique doesn´t matter to me, I have no preference regarding that and simply pick that, what sounds best to me.

• Epos ES14n from @Karl-Heinz Fink (Unfortunately no possibility for listening as there is no retailer for it in my surrounding; Also not sure how the vertical directivity works, I think I like the directivity of coax... But I like the looks and have some sympathies for the engineer, which also plays a role for me)
• Mofi Sourcepoint 8 (I´m not sure if I like the looks, at the pictures it looks a little bit cheap when it comes to the finish; they are also pretty expensive in europe compared to the US)
• GGNTKT M1 (I´m curious how the cardiod bass will integrate with my subs; looks is also great)
• ME Geithain RL903K (also cardiod but fully analog; Not sure If I like class AB amps, they are powerhungry and heating the room; kind of ugly)
• Sigbergaudio SBS.1 (somehow I have no good feeling with expensive speakers from a small new company - Don´t know how long it will exist and the price discount for used products are usually high / low value stability. Also no possibility to test them riskfree)
• Nubert NuZeo 4
• The upcoming Ascilab speakers (the same as for sigbergaudio, small unknown company with probably low value stability)

I´m interested what people think about these speakers - Has somebody already experience with some of these speakers?

Maybe I should also take a look at PA-speakers with Horns, I´m curious how the would sound in comparison.

Tomorrow I will listen to the Geithain and the GGNTK.


Greetings from Germany,

Paffi

Of these I would personally go for the Ascilab speakers, mainly because I am slightly obsessed with the Purifi drivers. They simply have the lowest distortion I've seen in published specs of woofers. You will give up a little in vertical directivity but it could be worth it.

Horn speakers are anecdotally said to have a strong feeling of "attack" so maybe you would enjoy the JBL 4329 or similar.

 

[Ziltoe]

What is your understanding of "attac"? Missing SPL in some [certain] frequencies at your listening position? If so, you might get the desired "attack and dynamics" by significantly decreasing the distance between your listening position and the speakers. 2,5m is quite a lot for such "small" speakers [and for some, if not all, of those you`ve listed above], even when combined / cut-off with subs. Or eq'ing those frequencies [respectively optimizing the DBA], you believe more "attack" should come from. When sticking on the 2,5m distance, I don't see a benefit replacing the LS50 with those speakers you are considering [NOT sure regards the GGNTKT M1 and Ascilab] since all are BS, designed to reproduce a flat FR [in an ideal environment] at a certain distance/SPL only. It might need, as @kemmler3D said, something with a "horn" or such.

 

[Paffi]

Friday was the day of the audition. As subjective impressions aren´t really welcome here, I keep it short.

I spent about 3-4 hours with these candidates, at an pro-audio dealer which couldn´t be better:

ME Geithain RL903K


Great stage depth, very natural and “real” sounding. The cardioid radiation is great, especially in not optimal acoustically treated rooms (as far as the bass range is concerned). I would say the depth of the stage is a little bit better than with my Kefs but somehow I also missed dynamics, attac and kind of "forward" sound.

GGNTKT M1



Higher dynamics than the Geihains. The cardioid radiation can be switched on and off, which is a very exciting comparison. The difference is more than just striking. Even more low frequencies than the Geithains (which reach deep at 35hz at -3db). BUT I got them pretty fast to their limit with one of my tracks

PSI Audio A17-Ms



You can hear the active phase correction - the parts sound so natural, I would consider the sound character to be similar to Geithain's. Despite the small size, the bass is really good. That´s a speaker that really surprised me.

And the little monsters are just fun



To put it briefly: These are all really fantastic speakers. So honestly, these are all high-end products that you can be happy with. Unfortunately, I didn't get the feeling of "wanting" any of the speakers. On the contrary, I noticed how good the cheap LS50meta are when you remove the bass from them - hearing that in comparison was very astonishing to me. The Geithains cost 12k, the M1 8k, the LS50 only 1k (plus amplifier & subs) - but somehow I didn't have the feeling that I was improving... And I realized again how ****** that is if you don't have subs - this "more bass when I lean back" and "less bass when I lean forward" really annoyed me in "normal" listening rooms (even though there were two PSI Avaa and thick bass traps in the back corners) I really want to buy something from this dealer, as that´s the kind of dealer which is pretty rare nowadays and have to be supported. It´s a pitty.

and then another hour with the Mofi, the model had been on my mind for a long time and then I noticed that they were at a dealer 3km away - so I spontaneously rushed there the same day at 6 p.m. Unfortunatley this was a classic hifi-dealer with all it pros an cons.

Mofi Sourcepoint 8



To cut a long story short: They end up on the shortlist. At 3k in Germany (in the USA they only cost 2k USD :roll: ) they are a real price-performance breaker. So I read a lot about the model, and Erin's measurements and his judgment were of course in the back of my mind - the things sound fantastic.

But I surely won´t buy it at the dealer where I auditioned them. Hell that was a lot of voodoo talk about how bad Class-D sounds, the sounds of dac and of course cable sound ("cable blabla" "I don´t believe in that" "there is nothing to believe, If I change it now you would instantly hear the difference"). Such dialogs made me kind of uncomfortable while the audition. BUT their (selfbuilt) tube amplifier made a lot of fun (it costs between 20k and 30k €...). IF i get a high sensitiy speaker like the mofi, I surely have to test some tube amplifiers at home - I kind of liked it. What I really didn´t like was some badmouth about karl-heinz fink. They used to sell his speakers but somehow there was a conflict in the past.

@kemmler3D You´ve mentioned the JBL and I´m seriously thinking of It. Unfortunatley there is no dealer to test them, so I would have to order it to my place... What I don´t like is the aestethics and that is a allinone streaming loudspeaker - I´d like to keep that separate. And they´re probably to big. So maybe I try the JBL 4309 at home (but still: the looks...). Has anybody another suggestion for neutral horn speakers? I heard something about blumenhofer horns (german manufacture).

 

[prestigetone]

This is one of the best write ups I've seen on here. Really gets down to the basics and shows a simple set up can be fantastic. If the dealer gifted you one of those set ups, which one would you take?

 

[SIY]

Out of the box (literally) suggestion: had you considered dipoles? Like ESLs? It's a VERY different sound rather than another variation on the theme you already have.

 

[TurtlePaul]

I think it is a little hilarious that a dealer who is doing demos for several DSP speakers is trying to sell cable magic.

 

[Abaxial]

Friday was the day of the audition. As subjective impressions aren´t really welcome here, I keep it short.

I spent about 3-4 hours with these candidates, at an pro-audio dealer which couldn´t be better:

ME Geithain RL903K
View attachment 385852

Great stage depth, very natural and “real” sounding. The cardioid radiation is great, especially in not optimal acoustically treated rooms (as far as the bass range is concerned). I would say the depth of the stage is a little bit better than with my Kefs but somehow I also missed dynamics, attac and kind of "forward" sound.

GGNTKT M1

View attachment 385853

Higher dynamics than the Geihains. The cardioid radiation can be switched on and off, which is a very exciting comparison. The difference is more than just striking. Even more low frequencies than the Geithains (which reach deep at 35hz at -3db). BUT I got them pretty fast to their limit with one of my tracks

PSI Audio A17-Ms

View attachment 385854

You can hear the active phase correction - the parts sound so natural, I would consider the sound character to be similar to Geithain's. Despite the small size, the bass is really good. That´s a speaker that really surprised me.

And the little monsters are just fun

View attachment 385855

To put it briefly: These are all really fantastic speakers. So honestly, these are all high-end products that you can be happy with. Unfortunately, I didn't get the feeling of "wanting" any of the speakers. On the contrary, I noticed how good the cheap LS50meta are when you remove the bass from them - hearing that in comparison was very astonishing to me. The Geithains cost 12k, the M1 8k, the LS50 only 1k (plus amplifier & subs) - but somehow I didn't have the feeling that I was improving... And I realized again how ****** that is if you don't have subs - this "more bass when I lean back" and "less bass when I lean forward" really annoyed me in "normal" listening rooms (even though there were two PSI Avaa and thick bass traps in the back corners) I really want to buy something from this dealer, as that´s the kind of dealer which is pretty rare nowadays and have to be supported. It´s a pitty.

and then another hour with the Mofi, the model had been on my mind for a long time and then I noticed that they were at a dealer 3km away - so I spontaneously rushed there the same day at 6 p.m. Unfortunatley this was a classic hifi-dealer with all it pros an cons.

Mofi Sourcepoint 8

View attachment 385856

To cut a long story short: They end up on the shortlist. At 3k in Germany (in the USA they only cost 2k USD :roll: ) they are a real price-performance breaker. So I read a lot about the model, and Erin's measurements and his judgment were of course in the back of my mind - the things sound fantastic.

But I surely won´t buy it at the dealer where I auditioned them. Hell that was a lot of voodoo talk about how bad Class-D sounds, the sounds of dac and of course cable sound ("cable blabla" "I don´t believe in that" "there is nothing to believe, If I change it now you would instantly hear the difference"). Such dialogs made me kind of uncomfortable while the audition. BUT their (selfbuilt) tube amplifier made a lot of fun (it costs between 20k and 30k €...). IF i get a high sensitiy speaker like the mofi, I surely have to test some tube amplifiers at home - I kind of liked it. What I really didn´t like was some badmouth about karl-heinz fink. They used to sell his speakers but somehow there was a conflict in the past.

@kemmler3D You´ve mentioned the JBL and I´m seriously thinking of It. Unfortunatley there is no dealer to test them, so I would have to order it to my place... What I don´t like is the aestethics and that is a allinone streaming loudspeaker - I´d like to keep that separate. And they´re probably to big. So maybe I try the JBL 4309 at home (but still: the looks...). Has anybody another suggestion for neutral horn speakers? I heard something about blumenhofer horns (german manufacture).

You have a photo of Genelec 8381's in there, did you listen to them?

 

[prestigetone]

You have a photo of Genelec 8381's in there, did you listen to them?

He mentioned it, but ironically gave the least amount of description for them. Just said they are fun.

 

[Paffi]

This is one of the best write ups I've seen on here. Really gets down to the basics and shows a simple set up can be fantastic. If the dealer gifted you one of those set ups, which one would you take?

That´s a pretty though question - If you include the Mofi, probably the Mofi.

Out of the box (literally) suggestion: had you considered dipoles? Like ESLs? It's a VERY different sound rather than another variation on the theme you already have.

I tried dipoles (Nuvero 30) before I bought the LS50 meta. I´m not missing a deeper / wider stage but try to get more attac and dynamics - a litte bit more forward. Do you mean electrostatic speakers, when you´re talking of ESL? Never tried that.

I think it is a little hilarious that a dealer who is doing demos for several DSP speakers is trying to sell cable magic.

That was the "Hifi"-Dealer with the Mofis, not the Dealer where I auditioned the other (active) ones. The latter is a more professional studio dealer which has nothing to do with cable magic.

You have a photo of Genelec 8381's in there, did you listen to them?

He mentioned it, but ironically gave the least amount of description for them. Just said they are fun.

Yes, I did it, as they we´re already installed and I could have a short listening session. They sound neutral as Genelecs do and of course their bass is enormous, I think the room was kind of overwhelmed with that. As they aren´t in my focus, I listened rather short and not that precise, so I´m not able to really describe them.

Next week I will audition the blumenhofer tempesta 17, to get an impression if a hornspeaker will give me what I´m looking for. Unfortunately again one of these elitist hifidealers, talking about bad sounding Class D amplifiers, "fitting" electronics etc.. It´s just a pitty that these hifi dealers all do the same voodoo blabla which is kind of annoying. The last dealer (where I auditioned the MoFi) was honestly shocked in the moment he realized, that I´m only using Spotify.... That´s why I would love to buy at the pro audio dealer...

 

[SIY]

Do you mean electrostatic speakers, when you´re talking of ESL?

Yes. The best ones I've heard gave me more of an impression of live instruments and voices than any conventional drivers-in-a-box. It's a highly individual thing, so it may be worth trying just to see if you love or hate them- either way, they sound VASTLY different than box speakers.

 

[Paffi]

Yes. The best ones I've heard gave me more of an impression of live instruments and voices than any conventional drivers-in-a-box. It's a highly individual thing, so it may be worth trying just to see if you love or hate them- either way, they sound VASTLY different than box speakers.

That sounds interesting - do you have a specific model you can recommend? Maybe I try do audition them too (JBL and EPOS are also still on the list).

 

[SIY]

That sounds interesting - do you have a specific model you can recommend? Maybe I try do audition them too (JBL and EPOS are also still on the list).

The ones I’m currently using (Quad 988) are out of production. I’ve been impressed with brief listens to the Roger Sanders ESLs, but I’m sure others here have a better idea about currently available options.

 

[MKR]

Friday was the day of the audition. As subjective impressions aren´t really welcome here, I keep it short.

I spent about 3-4 hours with these candidates, at an pro-audio dealer which couldn´t be better:

ME Geithain RL903K
View attachment 385852

Great stage depth, very natural and “real” sounding. The cardioid radiation is great, especially in not optimal acoustically treated rooms (as far as the bass range is concerned). I would say the depth of the stage is a little bit better than with my Kefs but somehow I also missed dynamics, attac and kind of "forward" sound.

GGNTKT M1

View attachment 385853

Higher dynamics than the Geihains. The cardioid radiation can be switched on and off, which is a very exciting comparison. The difference is more than just striking. Even more low frequencies than the Geithains (which reach deep at 35hz at -3db). BUT I got them pretty fast to their limit with one of my tracks

PSI Audio A17-Ms

View attachment 385854

You can hear the active phase correction - the parts sound so natural, I would consider the sound character to be similar to Geithain's. Despite the small size, the bass is really good. That´s a speaker that really surprised me.

And the little monsters are just fun

View attachment 385855

To put it briefly: These are all really fantastic speakers. So honestly, these are all high-end products that you can be happy with. Unfortunately, I didn't get the feeling of "wanting" any of the speakers. On the contrary, I noticed how good the cheap LS50meta are when you remove the bass from them - hearing that in comparison was very astonishing to me. The Geithains cost 12k, the M1 8k, the LS50 only 1k (plus amplifier & subs) - but somehow I didn't have the feeling that I was improving... And I realized again how ****** that is if you don't have subs - this "more bass when I lean back" and "less bass when I lean forward" really annoyed me in "normal" listening rooms (even though there were two PSI Avaa and thick bass traps in the back corners) I really want to buy something from this dealer, as that´s the kind of dealer which is pretty rare nowadays and have to be supported. It´s a pitty.

and then another hour with the Mofi, the model had been on my mind for a long time and then I noticed that they were at a dealer 3km away - so I spontaneously rushed there the same day at 6 p.m. Unfortunatley this was a classic hifi-dealer with all it pros an cons.

Mofi Sourcepoint 8

View attachment 385856

To cut a long story short: They end up on the shortlist. At 3k in Germany (in the USA they only cost 2k USD :roll: ) they are a real price-performance breaker. So I read a lot about the model, and Erin's measurements and his judgment were of course in the back of my mind - the things sound fantastic.

But I surely won´t buy it at the dealer where I auditioned them. Hell that was a lot of voodoo talk about how bad Class-D sounds, the sounds of dac and of course cable sound ("cable blabla" "I don´t believe in that" "there is nothing to believe, If I change it now you would instantly hear the difference"). Such dialogs made me kind of uncomfortable while the audition. BUT their (selfbuilt) tube amplifier made a lot of fun (it costs between 20k and 30k €...). IF i get a high sensitiy speaker like the mofi, I surely have to test some tube amplifiers at home - I kind of liked it. What I really didn´t like was some badmouth about karl-heinz fink. They used to sell his speakers but somehow there was a conflict in the past.

@kemmler3D You´ve mentioned the JBL and I´m seriously thinking of It. Unfortunatley there is no dealer to test them, so I would have to order it to my place... What I don´t like is the aestethics and that is a allinone streaming loudspeaker - I´d like to keep that separate. And they´re probably to big. So maybe I try the JBL 4309 at home (but still: the looks...). Has anybody another suggestion for neutral horn speakers? I heard something about blumenhofer horns (german manufacture).

Agree with @prestigetone , great write up, thanks for sharing your thoughts

Maybe I missed it, but what is your budget? Is budget a reason you are not considering D&D 8C?

As you are in EU, you may want to consider a trip to the UK to visit @Purité Audio. That’s where I would start if in EU.

Please keep us posted on your journey.

 

[prestigetone]

I think Dutch & Dutch would probably perform the best as @MKR said. Their smaller and larger offerings will be great I am sure, but the prices are getting out of hand and above diminishing returns. AsciLab is going to be the new dollar for dollar champ.

 

[Paffi]

I contacted Sanders Sound, because they mention "selected dealers" at their homepage - unfortunately, they have no dealer in Germany. Their mail contact is superb, they offer a 30 day free trial with free shipping worldwide (including the shipping back!). But it's to much of a hustle for me, at this price range (model 10 is listed for 20k new) I would probably only buy used, so it won't be fair. It's a pitty because I'm curious how electrostatic speaker would sound.

Maybe I missed it, but what is your budget? Is budget a reason you are not considering D&D 8C?

As you are in EU, you may want to consider a trip to the UK to visit @Purité Audio. That’s where I would start if in EU.

I have no fixed budget, can be a little bit more expensive or awesome cheap, it just have to sound good but I think the D&D is too expensive, especially after their enormous price increase....

The UK is unfortunately no option, as they leaved the EU family and therefore I don't want to buy there.

Today I got the chance to listen to JBL 4329p



Well, what to say - I really liked what I heard. As it's another day and another room, I can't compare them to the other speakers, but what I can say is, that I've heard the kind of dynamics / livesound what I missed before but still sounding kind of neutral. I'm listening to every kind of music (really every kind), so my testing sessions are a wild mixture - while most of the songs sound good at many speakers, some titles won't (techno with high bpm). But the JBL sounded fast with that kind of attack, which brings me in a bad situation - their looks won't fit in our living room...


I have high expectations for the blumenhofer speakers next week.

 

[kemmler3D]

@Paffi thanks for the detailed writeups, sometimes people like to discredit subjective reports on this site, but I can't help but take an interest in whether my own guesses match what people say about speakers.

Too bad about the looks, but aesthetics are make-or-break, it's pointless to argue with the fact.

Will be interested in your report on the blumenhofers.

 

[MKR]

I contacted Sanders Sound, because they mention "selected dealers" at their homepage - unfortunately, they have no dealer in Germany. Their mail contact is superb, they offer a 30 day free trial with free shipping worldwide (including the shipping back!). But it's to much of a hustle for me, at this price range (model 10 is listed for 20k new) I would probably only buy used, so it won't be fair. It's a pitty because I'm curious how electrostatic speaker would sound.


I have no fixed budget, can be a little bit more expensive or awesome cheap, it just have to sound good but I think the D&D is too expensive, especially after their enormous price increase....

The UK is unfortunately no option, as they leaved the EU family and therefore I don't want to buy there.

Today I got the chance to listen to JBL 4329p

View attachment 386866

Well, what to say - I really liked what I heard. As it's another day and another room, I can't compare them to the other speakers, but what I can say is, that I've heard the kind of dynamics / livesound what I missed before but still sounding kind of neutral. I'm listening to every kind of music (really every kind), so my testing sessions are a wild mixture - while most of the songs sound good at many speakers, some titles won't (techno with high bpm). But the JBL sounded fast with that kind of attack, which brings me in a bad situation - their looks won't fit in our living room...


I have high expectations for the blumenhofer speakers next week.

Wasn’t aware of a major price increase on the 8Cs … again, ping Keith at @Purité Audio, he may be able to help ya out … understand your comment on diminishing returns, but even at a higher price point going to be tough to beat the 8Cs.

You could also consider a custom design from Soundfield, but they are in the US and will be tough to audition (though I am aware of a pair that went over to EU recently, maybe that person would allow an audition)

 

[prestigetone]

Wont say what I paid for my pair of 8Cs but their prices have gone up substantially, and they also have removed a big portion of their dealer network, which makes it harder to get a discount. I think they might be worth it at $10K or less, but 50% over that is quite the premium. The AsciLab are going to really be amazing contenders that utilize Klippel and do most of what all of the competitors in this thread do at 1/3 the price. Even at the 8C price point I'd love to try out the Neumann 420.