Bluesound Node Icon (Quick User Measurements)

[Sokel]

Also,
My integrated has only rca in - if I use Node Icon xlr out to rca in on my integrated (integrated doesn’t have xlr inputs) do I benefit from the xlr way higher SINAD score?

Shorting the outputs is never a good idea.You normally need an additional link for that.
Ask before attempting it.

 

[GXAlan]

@GXAlan or others. To help me understand if I’m reading this all correctly as I’m thinking of buying an Icon to use with my integrated amp (icon as streamer/dac).

So, dollar for dollar, if you want RCA out, it seems like the WiiM Ultra is the best choice.

What I don’t know is if the RCA measurements are just a problem with my own measurement setup or if it is real. It’s such a big drop that I am more inclined to think it’s a problem with my test setup. I haven’t had a chance to see if the XLR outputs converted to balanced are superior to the native RCA outputs. It’s possible if the XLR got all of the engineering and the RCA was cost cutting to just match the Node N132. It’s also possible is some sort of testing error with my E1DA Cosmos ADC or generic XLR to RCA adapters.

Just gotta wait for Amir’s test to know for sure.

 

[mr_bill]

That sounds good and well wait for Amir’s testing and measurements to see. I think the DACs are run in balanced mode in xlr output vs the rca output but I might not know what I’m talking about.

 

[GXAlan]

That sounds good and well wait for Amir’s testing and measurements to see. I think the DACs are run in balanced mode in xlr output vs the rca output but I might not know what I’m talking about.

We definitely see products like the Fosi ZD3 which maintain performance with both XLR and RCA.

The Node Icon has more electronics to add noise (CPU, wifi, display, network). Bluesound quotes an 8 dB penalty in SNR (129 dB vs 121 dB) which is reasonable. The official 0.0004% 0.004% is just 88 dB and I got 92.6 dB which is 0.0023% THD so even though there is a drop in performance, it still beats the advertised specs.

 

[pjug]

The official 0.0004% is just 88 dB

I think you missed one of the zeros there. But more I just want to thank you for your work shown in this thread.

 

[pjug]

official 0.0004% 0.004% is just 88 dB

I think the spec for RCA does have three zeros though, right?

 

[GXAlan]

I think you missed one of the zeros there. But more I just want to thank you for your work shown in this thread.

Oops. Fixed.

You’re welcome. Here's an analog recording of the XLR output for those who want to use Dirac to apply EQ as opposed to room correction (since the headphone out applies Dirac)

 

[sapphari]

Awesome thread, thanks @GXAlan !

 

[pogo]

Here's an analog recording of the XLR output for those who want to use Dirac to apply EQ as opposed to room correction (since the headphone out applies Dirac)

Cool, that means you can now also transfer data from a headphone database to a DL target file to correct it. If someone has a Teufel Real Z, I can provide two files. One of them is with the optimal utilization of the DL headroom, i.e. here I have added the same offset for each correction point. Should work up to max. 12dB these days. Here is the version without offset:

 

[pogo]

I would be interested to know whether the FlatCurve project can also be used with an N132

 

[Rja4000]

RCA performance is really poor for me. I have a mess of cables and generic RCA to XLR (for my E1DA Cosmos) so I don’t know if that’s a testing issue or if it’s really such a big drop in performance.

I doubt there is such a loss.
You may want to use an USB isolator for RCA testing.

Read more on Archimago testing of the Topping HS02, which works with the E1DA ADC.

MEASUREMENTS: Topping HS02 USB 2.0 isolator. (This works with the E1DA Cosmos ADC; and the Topping + Intona "double isolation" of DAC and ADC.)

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[GXAlan]

I doubt there is such a loss.
You may want to use an USB isolator for RCA testing.

The AC mains noise doesn't seem too bad, but what I'm thinking of is something like this (which involves XLR cables)

Measured effect of cable routing/component placement

In DIY amplifier kits, there is often talk of cable routing and effects on measured performance. Here I would like to show the difference with real, premium electronics using worst case topologies. Test Setup Topping D90 MQA Belden 8423 0.8m XLR balanced cable Marantz PM-10 integrated amp...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Mnyb]

Thanks again for measuring. Given the tone control bugg I revised my previously positive impression ( as you do when presented with new information ) it looks like an intager math bugg of some sort and the whole sale hit Dirac takes looks like shortcuts to me ?

Maybe my WiiM pro+ is equally bad a real shortcut is to use your PC I’m experimenting with ROON and that’s probably a true floating point implementation.

Realistically you should implement eq and DRC in floating point and the performance hit should simply bee your maximum boost + some dB for clipping protection ( user setting like in WiiM or ROON ) when you convert back to 24 bit pcm for the DAC chip .

Looks like this product applies a safety margin that’s simply accounting the maximum possible boost for thier product and some margin not what your actual correction is using ?

 

[Rja4000]

The AC mains noise doesn't seem too bad, but what I'm thinking of is something like this (which involves XLR cables)

Measured effect of cable routing/component placement

In DIY amplifier kits, there is often talk of cable routing and effects on measured performance. Here I would like to show the difference with real, premium electronics using worst case topologies. Test Setup Topping D90 MQA Belden 8423 0.8m XLR balanced cable Marantz PM-10 integrated amp...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It's not just the mains.

Look at the Noise shape and compare with Archimago's. He was loosing 20dB SINAD, not just by mains but by general noise level elevation.

You have the same phenomenon here.

 

[Rja4000]

it looks like an intager math bugg of some sort and the whole sale hit Dirac takes looks like shortcuts to me

It's obviously a software bug.
It only exists for bass correction.
Trebble correction is done correctly.
It is present on all models, both on digital and analog outputs.

I reported it on Bluesound support forum more than one year ago, but didn't even had any acknowledgement.
I'll publish a full review of my brand new N132 soon, so I hope that will bring more visibility and, eventually, they will fix it.

 

[GXAlan]

Thanks again for measuring. Given the tone control bugg I revised my previously positive impression ( as you do when presented with new information ) it looks like an intager math bugg of some sort and the whole sale hit Dirac takes looks like shortcuts to me ?

It's weird because the Bass -0.5 dB has minimal impact when dealing with the SPDIF output, which is different from how Rja4000 saw it. But how it translates this to the analog output seems to incur a massive penalty. It's easy to see how a reviewer would try it flat with the tone control "in the signal chain" and seeing the small SINAD hit and thinking it was the main problem.

I don't use the tone controls but just because I don't use the tone controls doesn't mean that we shouldn't ask them to fix it.

The wildcard is the headphone output. My sense is that the popularity of headphone systems and their decision to integrate the THX AAA design means that the headphone is a very important part of the design. I wonder if any of these odd decisions translates into something different for the headphone out.

These types of problems are why we need ASR and hobbyists with measuring gear.

 

[Rja4000]

It's weird because the Bass -0.5 dB has minimal impact when dealing with the SPDIF output

Not really.
In digital, SINAD should be around 146dB.
With bass correction, you loose 31dB SINAD !

 

[pogo]

Given the tone control bugg I revised my previously positive impression

Is it really a bug?
It looks as if switching on the tone controls and changing in the low frequency range causes interference. Perhaps this interference can be reduced by the USB isolator mentioned.

 

[Rja4000]

Is it really a bug?
It looks as if switching on the tone controls and changing in the low frequency range causes interference. Perhaps this interference can be reduced by the USB isolator mentioned.

Nope.
It's purely software related.

In digital, it's also there.
Even worse.

It's a good news, since the only thing required to fix it is a software upgrade.

 

[pogo]

The stimuli were also via a digital input?