$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[MKR]

How hard is it to get the 4367 or M2 for a listen? Would your dealer be able to get a 4367 with you pretty much walking away with either that or the Salon2?

Again, 99% sure the Salon2 is your choice but hard to ignore these kinds of posts and not be the slightest bit curious…

4367 - Bass Response? Seems like reviews are mixed.

So I am considering a pair of 4367's here as my next speakers. I've owned the 3900's in the past, and demo'd the M2's as a part of a big system, and I've briefly heard the 1400's. The M2's were spectacular, now I don't know how they were EQ'd, but easily one of the best speakers I've heard...

www.audioheritage.org

Heard a Revel and JBL Synthesis for the first time: F208, F228Be, 4367. A surprise for sure!

The other day I want to my local Revel dealer, US Tube Audio in Scottsdale, AZ I was able to listen to the F208, F228Be, and the JBL 4367. I thought I'd share my impressions. F208: Sounded fine to me, good low end, midrange sounded natural, top end was nice, over all nothing special. F228Be...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Not possible at this particular dealer, but there are other JBL dealers in the area, I plan to seek them out on my next trip. But this is just not about low frequency reproduction, it is also about the rest of the frequency spectrum! I highly doubt the mid to upper frequencies of the 4367 or dispersion will be the equal or better than the Salon 2. But, I will do best to hear for myself and not base my opinion on my assumptions. We shall see.

As to comparing the 208 and 228 to the 4367, the 208 and 228 are not even close to the Salon 2 as far as overall capability. Better to compare to the 328 and even then the 328 falls well short to my ears. All that to say, that post you keep linking doesn’t do much for me

 

[FrantzM]

....
....
Salon 2
NO FOMO.....

Peace.

 

[Purité Audio]

Did I read there is going to be a new model this year, surely worth waiting for that to be released, it could be worse like B&W, every model measuring more poorly than the last but I don’t believe so.
‘Keith

 

[dkinric]

The expectation based on feedback from his "source" is that the new models will be substantially more expensive and out of his budget.

 

[MKR]

....
....
Salon 2
NO FOMO.....

Peace.

@FrantzM Not sure this is directed at me? If yes, I assume you mean “fear of missing out” on the Salons? Nope, not in the least. You don’t know the story … this dealer went out on a limb and in good faith, and special ordered the Salons just for me, and he is carrying them financially. A big deal for him. So I am trying my best to be an honorable fella and not make him hold these for any longer than absolutely necessary. Simple as that. If I “miss out” on the Salons, plenty of fish in the sea, and there will always be something equal or better down the road. And by the way, as much as we all love music and this hobby, they are just speakers in the end, much more important things in life eh?

Regardless, thank you for your inputs always, I do appreciate it.

 

[MKR]

The expectation based on feedback from his "source" is that the new models will be substantially more expensive and out of his budget.

Correct

 

[MKR]

Did I read there is going to be a new model this year, surely worth waiting for that to be released, it could be worse like B&W, every model measuring more poorly than the last but I don’t believe so.
‘Keith

Salon 2s discontinued this year is confirmed, but a new replacement not at all confirmed to be released this year. The exact response I have from my sources is “we have no idea” and “Revel being very tight lipped about it”

 

[srrxr71]

Salon 2s discontinued this year is confirmed, but a new replacement not at all confirmed to be released this year. The exact response I have from my sources is “we have no idea” and “Revel being very tight lipped about it”

You could be waiting years. I hope they get announced at least in April.

 

[GXAlan]

I highly doubt the mid to upper frequencies of the 4367 or dispersion will be the equal or better than the Salon 2.

It won’t. You get some benefits of two-way design BUT the narrower dispersion gives you a distinct sound. It’s still good but not as good as the Salon2 and the 4367 is worse than the M2.

I suspect the Salon3 will bring M2/4367 woofer technology which could provide a measurable benefit and be styled for modern luxury home decors (whether that means mid century modern or modern-modern)

My understanding (and I have had the JBL Array with the 3” compression driver and JBL S/2600 with the compression driver from the Everest DD55000) is that the few people who consistently preferred the M2 over the Salon2 are believed to prefer the narrower dispersion of the M2.

Good crossover and good horn gets your $50 compression driver in your Studio 590 to sound silly good. Trying to listen to the 4367 lets you see what one extra generation of technology and a $350 compression driver can do!

But if you are going to lose your hold on the Salon2, you should get it.

 

[srrxr71]

The dispersion thing is such a personal preference. I prefer narrow personally.

OP has stated, as far I remember, how much he appreciated the wider dispersion of the Salon 2.

So having Genelecs I can safely say they are not very useful except for the person in the sweet spot. That’s been my experience. They are just so tuned for that spot. A second listener would have to sit behind the first. Imho.

For home cinema consumption you need wider dispersion. For home cinema production narrow is better.

I also think it’s a musical choice thing. I would suspect that listeners of primarily Jazz, classical and live acoustic performances are going to like wider dispersion better.

People who listen to to produced music may prefer narrow. Because they producer used such a system to produce it.

 

[fredoamigo]

Interesting reading that this cast of speakers among the best in this price range... the process of doing a pre-selection here and then listening seems to me judicious but not infallible if you don't want to make any mistakes in your choice, moreover I don't think that there are really infallible methods because there are still has too much visual bias or simply hearing fatigue that day or at that time, to be able to determine with precision and without errors the winners of this super casting ..
To do this, you would have to be able to live with each of them for a month in your listening room because this one will "match" or not with the room!! and again with the ease or not of implementation in this same room? Finally, there is also a listening philosophy specific to each of us.

sometimes I like to listen to a realistic volume which I would not have allowed to do Kii or D&D that I really liked too and it took me 30 years to realize that the most influential index for me was the dynamics of where my choice of 4367 which are in my opinion "untouchable" on this point (see the opinion of the others mentioned above but if it were other "fundamental" listening such as the sound stage or the deep bass on these speakers which measure all not too bad maybe salon 2 or blade. would do the trick...

 

[Absolute]

It won’t. You get some benefits of two-way design BUT the narrower dispersion gives you a distinct sound. It’s still good but not as good as the Salon2 and the 4367 is worse than the M2.

My understanding (and I have had the JBL Array with the 3” compression driver and JBL S/2600 with the compression driver from the Everest DD55000) is that the few people who consistently preferred the M2 over the Salon2 are believed to prefer the narrower dispersion of the M2.

Personally I don't think the dispersion itself is the most likely factor in that instance. After hundreds of hours of experimenting with the M2 I believe there's three things that perhaps can be alternative plausible explanations, ranked from most to least likely;

1. Frequency response is too bright in the listening window as standard.
2. Salon 2 has far better in-room bass performance due to the array-effect of several drivers vertically.
3. The phase shift of a LR 36 dB crossover is more audible than I first thought. It plays a part in how coherent and pleasurable the sound and soundstage is presented in my experience.

I would love to find out just how important the dispersion width itself is, especially since I seem to enjoy the M2's wider dispersion compared to Kii Three, but I think it's a stretch to assume wider dispersion itself is an obvious explanation in the face of other frequency related factors.

 

[Lsc]

@Lsc Your post happened to be about as objective as they come, shame on me for assuming otherwise, now I see it given the additional context you provided. I stand corrected sir, really appreciate your perspective, especially as a Salon 2 owner! Now you have opened the flood gates and I have several questions for you …

What other speakers did you audition in your “quest” and what were your thoughts?
Sounds like you also heard the JBLs?
What is size of your room and what “nuclear power station” are you using to drive the very inefficient Salons?
Do you use the Salons for home theater and if so do you happen to have the Voice 2? Thoughts on that speaker as a center channel?
Are you crossing over the Salons (80Hz?) and running multiple subs, or running full range?

Thats it for now, but I am sure I will think of others

Thank you

So I’ve actually been on the Revel train for the last dozen years so I’m highly biased. Meaning I had no plans on buying any other brand since I got the Concerta F12/C12. I have listened to other brands but since I’ve owned the F208/C208, F228Be and now salon2/voice2. I’ve heard the JBL Everest at Axpona but at no time have I ever considered JBL. The horn speakers do have that “live” sound but it’s not my cup of tea.

My system is in my family room so it’s about 21 x 19 with 12 foot vaulted ceilings, so pretty average size room. As I mentioned before I use the ATI6003 to power my front 3 that includes the voice2 and the 4000 for my surrounds (good old F12). So no nuclear power…but now that I have a DAC and am not using Dirac, the power is more than adequate. It’s as loud as I can stand it - w no compression.

The voice2 is a very good center channel and it matches very nicely (obviously) with the salon2. Unlike other brands, it’s built to the same standard as the salon2. I currently only have 1 sub (SVS PB16) that’s great for HT but I feel like for music I’m better running full range. I have an F113 but that’s in another room for my kids. I crossover at 60Hz for movies.

I’m planning on getting 2 JL F113v2 (or comparable)…better for music and for movies having 3 subs but overall my system is pretty simple and modest.

 

[olegtern]

It's hard for me to understand the phrase "dispersion will be the equal or better". Better — what is it? Wider across the range? Then omni should be the holder of the title of the best variance? But TC doesn't like them.

As I remember, I heard Revel speakers only once at the show. Foto from the magazine, just for illustration of how they were set up.

What made me a bad impression, when I sat closer to one of the speakers (on the leftmost seat, and this happened in the first and second row), the sound "stuck" to it, my friend had the same impression. The sweet spot was in the center seats, but if you sit on the side, then the stage stuck to the speaker.

Speakers stand wide, but not too wide. The photo distorts the perspective, there were only 3 or 4 chairs in a row, it's like a wide home sofa).

Many setups in similar placements have not shown this problem. E.g. JBLs in similar conditions didn't.

I have no idea what was the reason for this behavior of the speakers. But with constant directivity horns, you can achieve a very stable sound stage for all the sits on the couch.

Even sitting in front of one of the speakers, the sound does not stick to it, the sound stage only shifts to the side. There is still a strong stereo effect (or dialogues attached to the screen in films, I often sit in front of right speaker when my wife and I watch a movie and she's lying on the couch)).

That is what I would call good dispersion. And I'm talking about speakers with 90x50° horns...

Perhaps with good placement, Revels can also provide a wide sweet spot, I don't know.

 

[FrantzM]

@FrantzM Not sure this is directed at me? If yes, I assume you mean “fear of missing out” on the Salons? Nope, not in the least. You don’t know the story … this dealer went out on a limb and in good faith, and special ordered the Salons just for me, and he is carrying them financially. A big deal for him. So I am trying my best to be an honorable fella and not make him hold these for any longer than absolutely necessary. Simple as that. If I “miss out” on the Salons, plenty of fish in the sea, and there will always be something equal or better down the road. And by the way, as much as we all love music and this hobby, they are just speakers in the end, much more important things in life eh?

Regardless, thank you for your inputs always, I do appreciate it.

Hi

Whether the Salon 2 are retired, or not, they would remain superiors speakers. I am not sure anyone who grabs these would be missing much... True, the replacement could be better, it shall however be more expensive. IN the here and now, a pair of new Salon 2, can be had for 2/3 your budget, the balance would be welcome for powerful amplifiers and since one is dreaming a trio of subwoofers.. In which case, you could just like @DonH56 , reach 8 Hz at -3 dB .. Such performance would afford you inclusion to my Hate List.

Fun search. Thanks for allowing us to share and enjoy your journey.

Peace.

 

[srrxr71]

Interesting reading that this cast of speakers among the best in this price range... the process of doing a pre-selection here and then listening seems to me judicious but not infallible if you don't want to make any mistakes in your choice, moreover I don't think that there are really infallible methods because there are still has too much visual bias or simply hearing fatigue that day or at that time, to be able to determine with precision and without errors the winners of this super casting ..
To do this, you would have to be able to live with each of them for a month in your listening room because this one will "match" or not with the room!! and again with the ease or not of implementation in this same room? Finally, there is also a listening philosophy specific to each of us.

sometimes I like to listen to a realistic volume which I would not have allowed to do Kii or D&D that I really liked too and it took me 30 years to realize that the most influential index for me was the dynamics of where my choice of 4367 which are in my opinion "untouchable" on this point (see the opinion of the others mentioned above but if it were other "fundamental" listening such as the sound stage or the deep bass on these speakers which measure all not too bad maybe salon 2 or blade. would do the trick...

I was bit surprised to see the Kii 3 even with BXT is limited to 105dBC continuous.

It's hard for me to understand the phrase "dispersion will be the equal or better". Better — what is it? Wider across the range? Then omni should be the holder of the title of the best variance? But TC doesn't like them.

As I remember, I heard Revel speakers only once at the show. Foto from the magazine, just for illustration of how they were set up.

What made me a bad impression, when I sat closer to one of the speakers (on the leftmost seat, and this happened in the first and second row), the sound "stuck" to it, my friend had the same impression. The sweet spot was in the center seats, but if you sit on the side, then the stage stuck to the speaker.

Speakers stand wide, but not too wide. The photo distorts the perspective, there were only 3 or 4 chairs in a row, it's like a wide home sofa).

View attachment 261763

Many setups in similar placements have not shown this problem. E.g. JBLs in similar conditions didn't.

View attachment 261779

I have no idea what was the reason for this behavior of the speakers. But with constant directivity horns, you can achieve a very stable sound stage for all the sits on the couch.

Even sitting in front of one of the speakers, the sound does not stick to it, the sound stage only shifts to the side. There is still a strong stereo effect (or dialogues attached to the screen in films, I often sit in front of right speaker when my wife and I watch a movie and she's lying on the couch)).

That is what I would call good dispersion. And I'm talking about speakers with 90x50° horns...

Perhaps with good placement, Revels can also provide a wide sweet spot, I don't know.

Yes same happens with Genelecs. It’s very pronounced. They are highly optimized for the center position. Maybe some toe out can help but not really much.

I’m beginning to accept the limitations of home stereo. There is always some compromise. Levels, dynamics, dispersion. You just have to make trade offs.

But really i’m still beyond thankful for what we have. Because it’s incredible stuff.

 

[benanders]

The dispersion thing is such a personal preference. … For home cinema consumption you need wider dispersion. For home cinema production narrow is better.

Seems a reasonable generalization. I don’t argue it as a generalization.

…
I also think it’s a musical choice thing. I would suspect that listeners of primarily Jazz, classical and live acoustic performances are going to like wider dispersion better.

People who listen to to produced music may prefer narrow. Because they producer used such a system to produce it.

But here we’ve abundant (albeit anecdotal) contradictory cases. Produced music even for the consumer market of, say, soundtracks? I assume that’s still so heavily based on a level of overall personal preferences that speaker dispersion patterns won’t predict.

Another factor may be at play - preliminary exposure / bias. If you are judging based on live venues it can be immeasurably complicated, due to such different sounds.
Anyone who’s heard a soundtrack in a cinema may register that as the “original” or correct sound, or “best” sound, whereby hearing it re-mixed / re-mastered for HT or consumer stereo that gives it more precise imaging, will experience a dramatically different overall presentation and think “What happened!?” (and not in a good way).

Those of us who become enamored with the sounds from our speakers tend to prefer them on most, or all, tracks, yes?
Probably because we already had inherent preferences or bias before we landed with, or devised, said speakers.

 

[MKR]

You could be waiting years. I hope they get announced at least in April.

Hence reason I am not planning on waiting. Not to mention Kevin Voecks (original designer of the Salon 2) is no longer with Revel, doesn’t give me high hopes that a Salon 3 would be better and the entire endeavor might go sideways.

 

[benanders]

Personally I don't think the dispersion itself is the most likely factor in that instance. After hundreds of hours of experimenting with the M2 I believe there's three things that perhaps can be alternative plausible explanations, ranked from most to least likely;

1. Frequency response is too bright in the listening window as standard.
2. Salon 2 has far better in-room bass performance due to the array-effect of several drivers vertically.

Not being an acoustical engineer, but having heard multiple times the Salon’s and some of the JBL’s herein discussed, I’d reached the same assumption: if those 10” Salon drivers are firing the same signal, should be reason for their dramatic soundstage.
Amazing.
The 15” drivers on the JBL’s seemed to give a different kind of “impact” in the setups I heard (which all had some considerable level of room limitations).
Amazing.

A very talented speaker designer claimed the smaller the driver, the bigger the soundstage. I assume that’s been claimed more than once.
Countless folks of varying credibility have claimed bigger drivers offer greater “slam.” Boils down to which pro’s you perceive, and which pro’s you prefer, eh?

3. The phase shift of a LR 36 dB crossover is more audible than I first thought. It plays a part in how coherent and pleasurable the sound and soundstage is presented in my experience.

I would love to find out just how important the dispersion width itself is, especially since I seem to enjoy the M2's wider dispersion compared to Kii Three, but I think it's a stretch to assume wider dispersion itself is an obvious explanation in the face of other frequency related factors.

 

[MKR]

The dispersion thing is such a personal preference. I prefer narrow personally.

OP has stated, as far I remember, how much he appreciated the wider dispersion of the Salon 2.

So having Genelecs I can safely say they are not very useful except for the person in the sweet spot. That’s been my experience. They are just so tuned for that spot. A second listener would have to sit behind the first. Imho.

For home cinema consumption you need wider dispersion. For home cinema production narrow is better.

I also think it’s a musical choice thing. I would suspect that listeners of primarily Jazz, classical and live acoustic performances are going to like wider dispersion better.

People who listen to to produced music may prefer narrow. Because they producer used such a system to produce it.

Indeed, I prefer wider dispersion, that is probably obvious to most by now given my audition listening impressions