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$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

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delta76

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The point is the fella was genuine and believed in what he sold, which is very different than someone who knows it is nonsense and still proceeds to pawn it off on poor unsuspecting folks that don’t know any better. Not for a second did I believe he was trying to pull one over on me or lacked a conscience (I like to think I am quite savvy at this game, been at it for almost 40 years). Of course I tried to convince him otherwise, but it was just ignorance and like he had been brainwashed :confused: ... And it’s not like all the gear he had was nonsense, he had some decent stuff, Magico and Vivid for example are the real deal, and no doubt he takes good care of his customers (he has been in biz for over 20 years), and no one would force you to purchase the snake oil products from him, it’s still a free country, just stick to the products that provide real measured performance. Mainly to say, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water;)
maybe "conscience" is the wrong word. if you already have established understanding of what is snake oil blah blah then yes, you can buy from any dealer, preferably ones with best discounts and service. but for someone who is new and not so sure, then that's how he/she gets in to that snake oil world
 
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MattHooper

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The point is the fella was genuine and believed in what he sold, which is very different than someone who knows it is nonsense and still proceeds to pawn it off on poor unsuspecting folks that don’t know any better. Not for a second did I believe he was trying to pull one over on me or lacked a conscience (I like to think I am quite savvy at this game, been at it for almost 40 years). Of course I tried to convince him otherwise, but it was just ignorance and like he had been brainwashed :confused: ... And it’s not like all the gear he had was nonsense, he had some decent stuff, Magico and Vivid for example are the real deal, and no doubt he takes good care of his customers (he has been in biz for over 20 years), and no one would force you to purchase the snake oil products from him, it’s still a free country, just stick to the products that provide real measured performance. Mainly to say, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water;)

Agreed. We are big boys and can handle ourselves. If I had to avoid every local Audio dealer who believed in something or another that "we here" don't, I wouldn't have any dealers available. Thankfully I do and I have found a number of very fine, friendly, helpful dealers over the years where I've auditioned lots of gear (and bought some).
 

FlyingFreak

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Came here to read this weekend report. It's truly pleasure to follow your adventures @MKR !

Snake oil dealers the likes of whom you met give me all sorts of negative memories... Being nice and/or believing in it themselves are no redemption quality for me. Anyway, not polluting this thread with my stuff :)

It is remarkable to me that the speakers still in competition are from those big brands we hear about at pretty much any budget (Kef, Harman and maybe Genelec). Big brands capable of doing extensive R&D beat exotic boutique capabilities, despite what some of us (including me) might want to believe.

Got some questions that are deviating from the road you're in. Sorry if you already answer, I came in late and didn't read the entire thread.

When listening to Amir and Toole speaking about speaker listening got me thinking quite a bit. What I am getting from both of them is that the more we add speakers, the less we are capable of differentiate between them AND the more speakers the better. If that is correct, they both point towards recommending multichannel, descent, speakers over end game 2.0 setup. I wish I could try that theory out for myself and wonder how good mono or dual recording sounds on a multi channel system.

I am wondering what is the rational for you to choose not to go the multichannel way? I got that your current speakers will serve that purpose and it sounds like you favor 2 front speakers instead of 3 and put all your attention here in finding the best 2.0 system to your ears (I do get you intend to add subs).
 
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MKR

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Came here to read this weekend report. It's truly pleasure to follow your adventures @MKR !

Snake oil dealers the likes of whom you met give me all sorts of negative memories... Being nice and/or believing in it themselves are no redemption quality for me. Anyway, not polluting this thread with my stuff :)

It is remarkable to me that the speakers still in competition are from those big brands we hear about at pretty much any budget (Kef, Harman and maybe Genelec). Big brands capable of doing extensive R&D beat exotic boutique capabilities, despite what some of us (including me) might want to believe.

Got some questions that are deviating from the road you're in. Sorry if you already answer, I came in late and didn't read the entire thread.

When listening to Amir and Toole speaking about speaker listening got me thinking quite a bit. What I am getting from both of them is that the more we add speakers, the less we are capable of differentiate between them AND the more speakers the better. If that is correct, they both point towards recommending multichannel, descent, speakers over end game 2.0 setup. I wish I could try that theory out for myself and wonder how good mono or dual recording sounds on a multi channel system.

I am wondering what is the rational for you to choose not to go the multichannel way? I got that your current speakers will serve that purpose and it sounds like you favor 2 front speakers instead of 3 and put all your attention here in finding the best 2.0 system to your ears (I do get you intend to add subs).
I will be running multi channel (it is dual duty theater system after all). But indeed, originally I planned to run a “phantom“ center, but have since realized this is not the best approach if I want highest performance. So a center channel will in fact happen (as well as sides, rears, multiple subs, etc). And actually, if I go with the Salon 2s, I already have a Voice 2 lined up, just need to pull the trigger ;)
 

Adi777

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I will be running multi channel (it is dual duty theater system after all). But indeed, originally I planned to run a “phantom“ center, but have since realized this is not the best approach if I want highest performance. So a center channel will in fact happen (as well as sides, rears, multiple subs, etc). And actually, if I go with the Salon 2s, I already have a Voice 2 lined up, just need to pull the trigger ;)
So, if you will making multi channel with minimum 7 speakers, you will buy 7 speakers Salon 2? ;)
 
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benanders

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I will be running multi channel (it is dual duty theater system after all). But indeed, originally I planned to run a “phantom“ center, but have since realized this is not the best approach if I want highest performance. So a center channel will in fact happen (as well as sides, rears, multiple subs, etc). And actually, if I go with the Salon 2s, I already have a Voice 2 lined up, just need to pull the trigger ;)

@Adi777 your timing is impeccable given what I was just making much more long-winded. Now, with my page refreshed, I’ll go ahead and post, sparing you guys any further diatribe for now :p

@MKR given your initial feedback on the Salon 2, it’s great that your [preemptively heavily biased in favor of… ;)] opinion going into the audition was validated. No typical audition is objective, so it’s convenient when our “presearch” becomes reality.
Especially given the offer on the table for a center Ch as part of the discount deal. I thought back when you shared that, many folks would’ve folded in favor and auditioned nothing. So good on ya’s for holding out in favor of education.
But that makes me wonder - given the retail value of the Salon 2 now, would the discount permit 3x Salon 2’s within your budget, if you do go with that model? A 15-20% discount should about get you there…

I know, many folks do not like to use floor standers as center Ch’s for reasons of aesthetics or logistics (e.g. non-acoustically transparent screens). But that doesn’t change [in typical cases] the horizontal center Ch being more a lifestyle contrivance than anything else. I believe in speaker modularity being a product of lifestyle (e.g. concert PA rigs; my hifi setup). I do not believe in “end-game” speakers’ structural design being a product of lifestyle.
I’ve seen some floorstander L-C-R configs, and they‘re performance forces with which to be reckoned. If you go the DSP route with your music at any point, it could also (potentially) give fun results in up-mixing. But that’s a digression.

Regarding the “discontinued” status of the 2’s resurfacing, no speaker is guaranteed to have parts available indefinitely - I’m past believing in making such bourgeoisie selections as sound kit based on “future-proofing”. Did that with my new (at the time) music server-DAC in 2017 in part due to the company’s long history of cutting-edge disc-players and warranty/service. The manufacturer discontinued all AV lines the next year, shut down the CA lab that designed them, and the firmware for my device was so problematic as to be obsolete before 2018 was over. A discontinued Revel model seems to come with more certainty about future options, than many of the “new now, so not obsolete for many moons” options out there, eh?
 
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MKR

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So, if you will making multi channel with minimum 7 speakers, you will buy 7 speakers Salon 2? ;)
LOL, I wish … i do not have near the funds for an endeavor such as that
 
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MKR

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@Adi777 your timing is impeccable given what I was just making much more long-winded. Now, with my page refreshed, I’ll go ahead and post, sparing you guys any further diatribe for now :p

@MKR given your initial feedback on the Salon 2, it’s great that your [preemptively heavily biased in favor of… ;)] opinion going into the audition was validated. No typical audition is objective, so it’s convenient when our “presearch” becomes reality.
Especially given the offer on the table for a center Ch as part of the discount deal. I thought back when you shared that, many folks would’ve folded in favor and auditioned nothing. So good on ya’s for holding out in favor of education.
But that makes me wonder - given the retail value of the Salon 2 now, would the discount permit 3x Salon 2’s within your budget, if you do go with that model? A 15-20% discount should about get you there…

I know, many folks do not like to use floor standers as center Ch’s for reasons of aesthetics or logistics (e.g. non-acoustically transparent screens). But that doesn’t change [in typical cases] the horizontal center Ch being more a lifestyle contrivance than anything else. I believe in speaker modularity being a product of lifestyle (e.g. concert PA rigs; my hifi setup). I do not believe in “end-game” speakers’ structural design being a product of lifestyle.
I’ve seen some floorstander L-C-R configs, and they‘re performance forces with which to be reckoned. If you go the DSP route with your music at any point, it could also (potentially) give fun results in up-mixing. But that’s a digression.

Regarding the “discontinued” status of the 2’s resurfacing, no speaker is guaranteed to have parts available indefinitely - I’m past believing in making such bourgeoisie selections as sound kit based on “future-proofing”. Did that with my new (at the time) music server-DAC in 2017 in part due to the company’s long history of cutting-edge disc-players and warranty/service. The manufacturer discontinued all AV lines the next year, shut down the CA lab that designed them, and the firmware for my device was so problematic as to be obsolete before 2018 was over. A discontinued Revel model seems to come with more certainty about future options, than many of the “new now, so not obsolete for many moons” options out there, eh?
While a third Salon 2 would be ideal as a center channel, it would just not be realistic for my room design. Not to mention the Voice 2 is a superb center channel design, and I do not think it gives up much to a Salon 2 as far as FR and overall audio capability, except for the LF response, where it is -3dB at 60Hz. And I will be running subs regardless, so this is a non-issue for me. But again, I do agree, having the center be a carbon copy of the mains is absolutely best situation if you can make it happen.

As to the discontinuation topic, indeed I would like to believe I have a better chance with warranty support and replacement drivers with a large corp such as Harman vs a small boutique brand. But, no one can predict the future and never any guarantees in this type of situation, and ultimately you take a leap of faith, while mitigating the risk as much as possible. It is a con for the Salon 2s for sure and I would be foolish to ignore it. But again, the dealer and Revel directly has assured me there is no need for concern (within reason of course…I don’t expect Revel to have replacement drivers 20 years from now :p)
 

JustJones

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3 x Genelec 8361 with center placed horizontally though might not meet your preferred sound and aesthetics.
Another you don't read about much here perhaps because measurements are scarce 3 x Focal Trio 11be where the center can be placed horizontal as well.
 

Adi777

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@MKR Very interesting topic :)
How big different you heard between Perlisten vs Salon 2? Salon 2 have wide/much more wide soundstage? Only this, or something more? Salon 2 really have that great measurements?
It would be great if you could audition some speakers with a minimum 15" woofer. I am very curious if you would hear a bigger "punch" vs, for example, Salon 2 or Magico A5.
 
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MKR

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@MKR Very interesting topic :)
How big different you heard between Perlisten vs Salon 2? Salon 2 have wide/much more wide soundstage? Only this, or something more? Salon 2 really have that great measurements?
It would be great if you could audition some speakers with a minimum 15" woofer. I am very curious if you would hear a bigger "punch" vs, for example, Salon 2 or Magico A5.
Definitely a much larger soundstage with the Salon 2, massive and immense in fact, vs the Perlisten. But not many speakers out here, regardless of price, can equal the dispersion of the Salon 2s.

I reference my previous impressions on the S7ts …
Perlisten S7t
Driven by ATI 6000. These deserve the accolades. Very nice indeed. Pinpoint imaging, LF on point, smooth and detailed mids. Zero harshness, but great detail in the highs. Two nit picks … Smaller soundstage and narrow sweat spot, and due to the height of the tweeter (too low!), all the musicians appeared to be the height of hobbits. But overall, very, very good.

The Perlistens are very nice and well engineered speakers, no doubt, but they have their issues and are in no way the overall equal of the Salon 2s IMHO. The only area where they may better the Salons slightly is a bit more detail and imaging “sharpness”. But as I stated above, the tweeters are too low! Causes a major issue with the imaging as to a realistic portrayal of performers (unless again you like hobbits :p)

Note comparing only to Revel offerings, I would also rank the 328Be above the S7ts, maybe even the 228Be for that matter. Also bettering the S7ts were the A5s, Acoras, and Legacy Focus. I would also state that the particular Revel dealer where I heard the Salon 2s is where I also auditioned the S7ts … same room, same position, same electronics, level matched. And also, related, all of this dealer‘s customers that have heard both in same situation have gone with Revel 100% of the time.

As to hearing speakers with larger woofers, I can’t imagine a bigger punch in the gut vs what the Salon 2s and Legacy provided, but maybe. I will still be trying to audition the M2s, Everests, and 4367s, so we shall see.
 

Adi777

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For me Legacy also looks very interesting.
You saw maybe some measurements for Aeris?
 
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GXAlan

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As to hearing speakers with larger woofers, I can’t imagine a bigger punch in the gut vs what the Salon 2s and Legacy provided, but maybe. I will still be trying to audition the M2s, Everests, and 4367s, so we shall see.

For “punch in the gut” you definitely need to listen to one of the JBL 15” woofers. Some subjective comments about the three are noted here (if you don’t worry about being biased)

 

srrxr71

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Very, very interesting idea @Kal Rubinson ! However, I am just a lowly potential customer among thousands, I cannot see the massive corp that is Harman setting up such a session for one person. I wouldn’t even know who to contact! Feel free to DM me if you have some advice ;)
They might in their LA experience center.
 
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srrxr71

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You (MKR) really owe yourself at least a listen to 8351/61 (+W371?) in a good room, if for no other reason than to hear what a purely scientific approach to sound reproduction is capable of. Might you a benchmark if nothing else! :)
Agreed. Just so we can get impressions of the comparison.
 
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MKR

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For me Legacy also looks very interesting.
You saw maybe some measurements for Aeris?
Trying to get the spins now … may have to speak to Dudleston directly about that, trying to arrange a call … for sure nothing I can find on the interweb
 
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benanders

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Will try, but not going to go out of my way to make it happen

Nice thing is, that could also be done anytime post-purchase of your passives of choice. Only one potentially with anything to lose (or gain ;) ) at that point would be yourself. Other than loving or hurt feelings from a certain fanboy club. :p jking of course… maybe.
 

srrxr71

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Will try, but not going to go out of my way to make it happen
I don’t blame you. The system sounds amazing. However if you prefer wide dispersion I don’t think this is the right system for you. It’s good for one position only. In fact that’s its USP.

Now talking about the service i’m shocked by it.

The amps do come out easily. It took me about 5 minutes to get each out. But the issue I feel are the drive units, especially that front driver. If you find any speaker with a drive unit not up to spec then it’s the same drive unit replacement circus whether active or passive.

I was very surprised by the lackadaisical support experience of Genelec. Revel will likely treat you like you bought a flagship product from them. Genelec treats you like you bought anything in their line up.

After some wrangling they felt like overnighting things to me. I even contacted my dealer and they are not even keeping my dealer in the loop.

I feel like there will be another month of saga on this.
 
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