Selecting the best Home Theater Sub for your budget

[GXAlan]

So your reading on Sub #4 117.5dB once you take away in-room response of a corner load Sub (-9dB) takes it to 108.5dB. It makes me question it. As id expect in-Room with 4-Subs to be about 10dB higher.

The Trinnov mic is precisely calibrated, and I didn’t have those subwoofers in the exact corners. Those subs are individually measured so you aren’t seeing any cumulative effects at all in those measurements.

The other two are 10” subs that you see will roll off by 40 Hz. (Subs 1 and 3, look at the bottom for FR). Those are actually behind the sofa and not in the corners so they aren’t getting any wall gain. The S2 is the vintage JBL Synthesis S2S with a 2216nd woofer.

I posted the link for why Tom doesn’t send subwoofers for review. But end users are happy to send them to Erin or Amir for review.

@mj30250 captures a lot of the theory behind PSA. They really prioritize the cleanliness of the 35 and 45Hz and higher and have the trade-off of bigger drivers with low excursion rather than small drivers with high excursion. That has the downsides of physical space and less clear benefit of low distortion.

The Earthquake subs might be interesting with their passive radiators tuned at 13 Hz and a lot of output below 20 Hz but not as much above 20 Hz and oodles of distortion from the passive radiator being slightly out of sync.

Then, HSU, SVS, and Monolith are your common middle grounds, which are hard to argue with. The Monolith subs *seem* to have more reported failures of their amplifiers compared to HSU and SVS. The PSA products *seem* to have the highest quality components, but that may only prove valuable in 20+ year longevity, etc.

I just ordered a PSA sealed 18” sub (S1813m) which they say doesn’t do much more than <25Hz than what the dual sealed 12” subs can.

“The big difference performance wise is >25hz and especially >40hz. The S1813m will sound much more powerful in the mid and upper bass.”

 

[AnonymousAudio]

There are a lot of issues with that PSA video, but that's a subject for another discussion.

It's true that you won't currently find any anechoic/CEA testing of PSA subs. For some that will be an understandable concern, but I'll share some in-room results below. I started with two PSA TV21s and now have four in my main setup. Subjectively speaking, they are the best performing subs I've owned (especially with music) and integrate with my mains incredibly well. I have (and have had) multiple brands of subs including Klipsch, Outlaw, HSU, Monolith, Neumann, and SVS.

All measurements were taken at the MLP at roughly a 3 meter distance from the subs, the room is just under 6000cu ft and the floor is a carpeted concrete slab.

This is a FR sweep taken at a moderate volume when I had two, I found it fairly easy to get a smooth in-room response from them and got some nice room gain below 20Hz:

View attachment 432954

With four TV21s at a "sane" volume:

View attachment 432955

Distortion for above:

View attachment 432956

High volume measurement, the house was seriously complaining at this point so I didn't push any further:

View attachment 432957

Distortion for above:

View attachment 432958

I've also RTA'd movie scenes at over 130dB and could not discern any mechanical noises or obvious distortion from the subs at all (with all four playing). The play very clean if you stay within their limits. If you don't, they don't have an aggressive limiter like many other subs do, so they will quickly start to make some unpleasant sounds. Back off a touch (or add more subs!) and then all is well.

It is an issue that they deny Reviewers samples to measure like Audioholics. Thats like saying you make the best sports cars, then refuse to share your test results at the track or lend them to others to test independently. Thats not acceptable by todays sandards of transparency & honesty. If you dont hold companies accountable then they wont change. If their indeed so good then their should be zero hestitation.

All I know is YT reviewer Shane Lee paid for one (2112) w his iwn money and had a horrible time with it. And Gene couldn't get on in for review at Audioholics now matter how hard he tried...seems fishy.

 

[mj30250]

It is an issue that they deny Reviewers samples to measure like Audioholics. Thats like saying you make the best sports cars, then refuse to share your test results at the track or lend them to others to test independently. Thats not acceptable by todays sandards of transparency & honesty. If you dont hold companies accountable then they wont change. If their indeed so good then their should be zero hestitation.

Re: the bold. What needs to change, exactly? PSA is a small company whose owner (an original co-founder of SVS) designs, tests, and provides customer service and technical support largely by himself. They frequently run large order backlogs which the owner often publicly updates and publishes to message boards (primarily AVS Forum). I don't think shipping out boxes to review sites at his expense is a great priority. He also is not a believer that CEA-2010 stress testing (which is what Audioholics and similar testing sites adhere to) is sufficient to fully characterize subwoofer performance. Is he full of sh*t? Perhaps, but having set up, integrated, and listened to a multitude of subwoofers myself that have been subject to CEA testing, I would say that while the accompanying suite of measurements can be very helpful, they don't provide the entire story. For example, multi-tone distortion testing is something that is almost never measured on subwoofers these days, and I'm of the belief that it's more important to what is heard in a room than THD is, which is captured as part of CEA-2010.

Again, the Shane Lee video is problematic for a variety of reasons which have been discussed on other forums. I'm sure they can be searched up if you desire. It's certainly fine to maintain some skepticism in the absence of anechoic data. I always do and was definitely hesitant in moving forward with PSA, but I'm glad I ended up rolling the dice. These are very likely my end game subs in that setup.

 

[GXAlan]

If their indeed so good then their should be zero hestitation.

All I know is YT reviewer Shane Lee paid for one (2112) w his iwn money and had a horrible time with it. And Gene couldn't get on in for review at Audioholics now matter how hard he tried...seems fishy.

This is the nice rebuttal of Shane Lee’s review from just an end user. When you actually look at the published measurements of the FR sweep from the Perlisten and PSA, and the PSA has way more output below 20 Hz. So the objective data goes against Shane’s comments subjectively.

But the PSA doesn’t have an aggressive limiter, so you can definitely overdrive it.

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/62505924/

He also is not a believer that CEA-2010 stress testing (which is what Audioholics and similar testing sites adhere to) is not sufficient to fully characterize subwoofer performance.

To add to this, Tom isn’t anti measurements and he does offer in home trials, and a lot of his fans are experienced HT fans who also value measurements

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/62192676/

This is his argument against CEA. That CEA measures specific performance at specific pulses which doesn’t match real world performance and he finds that competitors are gaming the system by just optimizing for CEA 2010.

So, either it’s mass delusion or PSA has done a bit of Floyd Toole style R&D but kept the findings secret for business reasons.

PSA’s number one weakness is physical size because they use lower excursion drivers.

On the other hand, there are plenty of fans of subs from Monolith, SVS and HSU and those also have pretty generous return policies too.

 

[Oddball]

I read whole thread but not really sure what OP want to achieve? Seems thus far it is only confusion and if the OP wants the subsonic subs that is a different question. That would require many 24" divers that I guess he is not willing to acquire. Which is actually a good thing because at high SPL levels the sub 10hz frequencies would greatly disturb the wild life around.

 

[GXAlan]

I read whole thread but not really sure what OP want to achieve? Seems thus far it is only confusion and if the OP wants the subsonic subs that is a different question. That would require many 24" divers that I guess he is not willing to acquire. Which is actually a good thing because at high SPL levels the sub 10hz frequencies would greatly disturb the wild life around.

OP bought the Tonewinner D6000 (just saw this post).
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ewinner-d6000-15-subwoofer.45899/post-2237519

I think OP wanted to share his enthusiasm for the Tonewinner products. It would be great to see the measurements in OP’s room since there haven’t been a lot of independent reviews.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

The Trinnov mic is precisely calibrated, and I didn’t have those subwoofers in the exact corners. Those subs are individually measured so you aren’t seeing any cumulative effects at all in those measurements.

The other two are 10” subs that you see will roll off by 40 Hz. (Subs 1 and 3, look at the bottom for FR). Those are actually behind the sofa and not in the corners so they aren’t getting any wall gain. The S2 is the vintage JBL Synthesis S2S with a 2216nd woofer.

I posted the link for why Tom doesn’t send subwoofers for review. But end users are happy to send them to Erin or Amir for review.

@mj30250 captures a lot of the theory behind PSA. They really prioritize the cleanliness of the 35 and 45Hz and higher and have the trade-off of bigger drivers with low excursion rather than small drivers with high excursion. That has the downsides of physical space and less clear benefit of low distortion.

The Earthquake subs might be interesting with their passive radiators tuned at 13 Hz and a lot of output below 20 Hz but not as much above 20 Hz and oodles of distortion from the passive radiator being slightly out of sync.

Then, HSU, SVS, and Monolith are your common middle grounds, which are hard to argue with. The Monolith subs *seem* to have more reported failures of their amplifiers compared to HSU and SVS. The PSA products *seem* to have the highest quality components, but that may only prove valuable in 20+ year longevity, etc.

I just ordered a PSA sealed 18” sub (S1813m) which they say doesn’t do much more than <25Hz than what the dual sealed 12” subs can.

“The big difference performance wise is >25hz and especially >40hz. The S1813m will sound much more powerful in the mid and upper bass.”

The PSA crossovers are Good simple quality not the Highest quality at all.
Source: Erins Audio Corner

 

[GXAlan]

The PSA crossovers are Good simple quality not the "Highest" quality as you suggest

To be clear, I only like PSA Subwoofers. Their speakers prioritize things that aren’t as important to me such as efficiency, as I use active Meyer Sound speakers.

For subwoofers, you have the option of US made cabinets, Italian B&C drivers and their ICEpower amps are pretty reliable and also assembled in the U.S.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

To be clear, I only like PSA Subwoofers. Their speakers prioritize things that aren’t as important to me such as efficiency, as I use active Meyer Sound speakers.

For subwoofers, you have the option of US made cabinets, Italian B&C drivers and their ICEpower amps are pretty reliable and also assembled in the U.S.

Thats all fine I just cant blindly trust a company that isnt transparent in todays internet. Where most reputable companies either provide their own results, lend sample Subs for Review or Both.

You can't trust online Opinions and everyones room is different, the only way to have a level playing field is Anechoic measurements. Im just not willing to gamble thousands of my dollars to find out. Even if they paid for return shipping and gave me a full refund id still be wasting my time. So if they cant be bothered to provide me with proof, then I can be bothered trusting them with my bussiness. Personally its insulting to the customers to say trust me.

When the former SVS would and has bent over backwords helping me with virtually everything ive asked for.. now thats how customer service is done. PSA founder Tom V is a very rude guy i've talked with him several times now asking for info. To which he basically calls me a simp for asking the most obvious questions of all.

Imagine going to buy a sports car and the owner laughs at you for asking how fast it is. In one word I consider PSA "Arrogant".

 

[Chrispy]

Dual subs

Nice, the issue I keep seeing are with low content like in Edge of Tomorrow, War of the Worlds etc where the 2112 Sub bottoms out mechanically.

So your reading on Sub #4 117.5dB once you take away in-room response of a corner load Sub (-9dB) takes it to 108.5dB. It makes me question it. As id expect in-Room with 4-Subs to be about 10dB higher. The PSA 2112 would be the model closer to that range. (However that sub was the one with reported issues bottoming out) Havent heard anything about your 2410 specifically)

The top SVS, Monolith & Tonewinner subs push high 120's in-room.

Dual can help raise crossover as it won't be as localizeable but measuring specifics in room for integration is more important than trying to pick specs off a somewhat unrelated list. Edge of Tomorrow can be a sub killer...need some really capable subs to do that well at high spl. Corner loading isn't always the way to go.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Dual can help raise crossover as it won't be as localizeable but measuring specifics in room for integration is more important than trying to pick specs off a somewhat unrelated list. Edge of Tomorrow can be a sub killer...need some really capable subs to do that well at high spl. Corner loading isn't always the way to go.

Yep im aware of that, which is why im going Dual. Plus i hope to be getting Dirac ART ...we will see what happens in April once the update is suppose to happen. And if it will be added to certain Denon & Marantz receivers.

 

[Chrispy]

Yep im aware of that, which is why im going Dual. Plus i hope to be getting Dirac ART ...we will see what happens in April once the update is suppose to happen. And if it will be added to certain Denon & Marantz receivers.

Dual is a start

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Dual is a start

That will be my finish... at some point my living room isnt a dedicated theater its a gathering place in my home for family...with a nice system added.

 

[Chrispy]

That will be my finish... at some point my living room isnt a dedicated theater its a gathering place in my home for family...with a nice system added.

Just saying multiple subs can be beneficial....doesn't need to be a theater to enable even and non-locatable subs

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Just saying multiple subs can be beneficial....doesn't need to be a theater to enable even and non-locatable subs

4 subs would be even more beneficial, however my wife isnt gonna allow that...so going back to my reality two Subs is my max regardless. A 7.2.4 System is gonna have to be enough and i agree as well. Not everyone has the flexibility or desire to do 4 Subs. I will make it work just fine with two, especially if their placed strategically.
As was covered in this video and i plan to follow with my 2.

 

[GXAlan]

Here is my in-room measurements

 

[clutch6886]

Why not purchase the same brand of subwoofer as your tower speakers that are already designed to be integrated with your tower speakers for best performance?
That seems to be how most manufacturers work today. Already doing all of the testing so your tower speakers and subwoofer work together as a single unit?
And I agree that everyone wanting a "small" subwoofer enclosure instead of the proper size enclosure is doing themselves a diservice.
If your main goal is sound quality, then form follows function. That doesn't mean an 8 inch subwoofer cannot perform well. In the proper
enclosure it can. What I would recommend is if you can afford 2 subwoofers you will find that is probably the sound you are looking for that a single subwoofer
can rarely perform.
I think if you have a good quality signal, even digital with Toslink fiber optics for that "True" 5.1 surround sound experience you really shouldn't need a DSP in the first place.
I don't modify my sound signature allowing the music to play as best and close to how it was originally recorded. Is a 2 millisecond delay
between speakers even audible? I don't use a DSP and to keep latency or time delay at a minimum I just have my subwoofer spaced evenly, but close to my tower speakers. Preferring to come outward from a corner in my living room instead of placing my speakers flush with a wall. This allows my subwoofer to be placed just behind the tv (which is on a stand and not on the wall) and only 2 feet from each of my tower speakers. And my tower speakers facing the opposite wall at a 45 degree angle - no transient soundwaves to bounce back and cancel soundwaves from the speakers. They don't get reflected back towards your speakers. You should try it if you have the space. It really works (and yes fills the entire house with quality sound. Why I configure my system that way). Peace.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Why not purchase the same brand of subwoofer as your tower speakers that are already designed to be integrated with your tower speakers for best performance?
That seems to be how most manufacturers work today. Already doing all of the testing so your tower speakers and subwoofer work together as a single unit?
And I agree that everyone wanting a "small" subwoofer enclosure instead of the proper size enclosure is doing themselves a diservice.
If your main goal is sound quality, then form follows function. That doesn't mean an 8 inch subwoofer cannot perform well. In the proper
enclosure it can. What I would recommend is if you can afford 2 subwoofers you will find that is probably the sound you are looking for that a single subwoofer
can rarely perform.
I think if you have a good quality signal, even digital with Toslink fiber optics for that "True" 5.1 surround sound experience you really shouldn't need a DSP in the first place.
I don't modify my sound signature allowing the music to play as best and close to how it was originally recorded. Is a 2 millisecond delay
between speakers even audible? I don't use a DSP and to keep latency or time delay at a minimum I just have my subwoofer spaced evenly, but close to my tower speakers. Preferring to come outward from a corner in my living room instead of placing my speakers flush with a wall. This allows my subwoofer to be placed just behind the tv (which is on a stand and not on the wall) and only 2 feet from each of my tower speakers. And my tower speakers facing the opposite wall at a 45 degree angle - no transient soundwaves to bounce back and cancel soundwaves from the speakers. They don't get reflected back towards your speakers. You should try it if you have the space. It really works (and yes fills the entire house with quality sound. Why I configure my system that way). Peace.

Three reasons:
One - thats typically not the case, Subwoofers are designed to crossover and blend with multiple speaker designs from big (Towers) to small (Bookshelf).

Two - Often a good Subwoofer company doesn't mean they make good loudspeakers or vice versa.

Three - Sometimes it's the cost and you can find an equal or similar product at a fraction of the cost.

 

[Esprit]

Thanks. In the future, it's easier to read plain text than your image.

Subwoofer Comparison Table​

SPL @ 20Hz / 31.5Hz (Anechoic)
Compiled by AnonymousAudio

20Hz / 31.5Hz SPL	Model	Average SPL	Price
99.5 / 108.8 dB	HSU VTF-2 MK5	104.1 avg	$689
101.6 / 106.9 dB	Monolith 10 THX	104.2 avg	$599
101.2 / 110.3 dB	SVS PB-1000 Pro	105.7 avg	$799
104.6 / 108.4 dB	Speedwoofer 12S	106.5 avg	$799
106.0 / 111.3 dB	Monolith 12 THX	108.6 avg	$899
105.1 / 113.2 dB	SVS PB-2000 Pro	109.1 avg	$1,099
105.2 / 115.2 dB	HSU VTF-3 MK5	110.2 avg	$999
108.3 / 114.9 dB	SVS PB-3000	111.6 avg	$1,599
108.1 / 116.1 dB	Tonewinner D4000	112.1 avg	$1,099
110.0 / 114.5 dB	SVS PB12 Plus/2	112.2 avg	$1,499
108.8 / 116.2 dB	Monolith 15 THX	112.5 avg	$1,599
107.5 / 117.8 dB	Rythmik FV15HP	112.6 avg	$1,769
110.6 / 115.5 dB	SVS PB-13 Ultra	113.0 avg	$2,000
112.3 / 114.8 dB	SVS PB-4000	113.5 avg	$1,799
109.5 / 117.5 dB	Klipsch RP-1600sw	113.5 avg	$1,799
111.3 / 116.2 dB	Rythmik FV18	113.7 avg	$2,300
112.0 / 116.5 dB	Monolith 13 THX Ultra	114.2 avg	$1,799
113.3 / 118.6 dB	Tonewinner D6000	115.9 avg	$1,399
113.8 / 119.5 dB	SVS PB-16 Ultra	116.6 avg	$2,899
115.4 / 120.1 dB	Monolith 16 THX Ultra	117.7 avg	$2,299
116.0 / 120.0 dB	Tonewinner D9000	118.0 avg	$2,399
116.4 / 121.0 dB	Tonewinner D8000	118.7 avg	$2,299
115.9 / 122.2 dB	Monolith 215	119.0 avg	$2,499

---

️ Legend​

Color	Brand
Red	SVS
Orange	HSU
Yellow	Tonewinner
Green	Monolith
Blue	Rythmik
Purple	Klipsch
White/Grey	RSL (not listed in this table)

Notes:​

• SPL: Sound Pressure Level measured in decibels (dB)
• Anechoic: Measurements taken in a non-reflective (echo-free) chamber
• 20Hz / 31.5Hz: Low-frequency performance benchmarks
• avg: Average SPL from both frequencies
• Price: Manufacturer’s retail price in USD

(ChatGPT)

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Subwoofer Comparison Table​

SPL @ 20Hz / 31.5Hz (Anechoic)
Compiled by AnonymousAudio

20Hz / 31.5Hz SPL	Model	Average SPL	Price
99.5 / 108.8 dB	HSU VTF-2 MK5	104.1 avg	$689
101.6 / 106.9 dB	Monolith 10 THX	104.2 avg	$599
101.2 / 110.3 dB	SVS PB-1000 Pro	105.7 avg	$799
104.6 / 108.4 dB	Speedwoofer 12S	106.5 avg	$799
106.0 / 111.3 dB	Monolith 12 THX	108.6 avg	$899
105.1 / 113.2 dB	SVS PB-2000 Pro	109.1 avg	$1,099
105.2 / 115.2 dB	HSU VTF-3 MK5	110.2 avg	$999
108.3 / 114.9 dB	SVS PB-3000	111.6 avg	$1,599
108.1 / 116.1 dB	Tonewinner D4000	112.1 avg	$1,099
110.0 / 114.5 dB	SVS PB12 Plus/2	112.2 avg	$1,499
108.8 / 116.2 dB	Monolith 15 THX	112.5 avg	$1,599
107.5 / 117.8 dB	Rythmik FV15HP	112.6 avg	$1,769
110.6 / 115.5 dB	SVS PB-13 Ultra	113.0 avg	$2,000
112.3 / 114.8 dB	SVS PB-4000	113.5 avg	$1,799
109.5 / 117.5 dB	Klipsch RP-1600sw	113.5 avg	$1,799
111.3 / 116.2 dB	Rythmik FV18	113.7 avg	$2,300
112.0 / 116.5 dB	Monolith 13 THX Ultra	114.2 avg	$1,799
113.3 / 118.6 dB	Tonewinner D6000	115.9 avg	$1,399
113.8 / 119.5 dB	SVS PB-16 Ultra	116.6 avg	$2,899
115.4 / 120.1 dB	Monolith 16 THX Ultra	117.7 avg	$2,299
116.0 / 120.0 dB	Tonewinner D9000	118.0 avg	$2,399
116.4 / 121.0 dB	Tonewinner D8000	118.7 avg	$2,299
115.9 / 122.2 dB	Monolith 215	119.0 avg	$2,499

---

️ Legend​

Color	Brand
Red	SVS
Orange	HSU
Yellow	Tonewinner
Green	Monolith
Blue	Rythmik
Purple	Klipsch
White/Grey	RSL (not listed in this table)

Notes:​

• SPL: Sound Pressure Level measured in decibels (dB)
• Anechoic: Measurements taken in a non-reflective (echo-free) chamber
• 20Hz / 31.5Hz: Low-frequency performance benchmarks
• avg: Average SPL from both frequencies
• Price: Manufacturer’s retail price in USD

(ChatGPT)

Thnx im doing this all from my phone