Selecting the best Home Theater Sub for your budget

[AnonymousAudio]

Im currently in the market for a pair of Subs and figured i'd share my findings with everyone thats interested. I purposely am looking at (20hz & 31.5hz) as this is for a Home Theater sub application and my Speakers (SVS U.E. Pinnacles) will be crossed over around 40hz.

After some deep research going thru sub spreadsheets like the most popular one by (sweetchaos). Unfortunatly I found several errors. I tried reaching out to him for corrections and got no reply on his post. So I decided to make the corrections myself directly from the original source. Most notably all the Monolith subs which had incorrect readings due to an admitted mic calibration issue which Audioholics revealed back on 7/6/23. But that wasn't the only brand I came across with incorrect readings. My mini-chart has the corrected numbers.

*One exception are the Tonewinner subs, which were simulated to come to true Anechoic readings. This was due to the fact that they haven't been verified by Audioholics. Instead the measurenents came from youtuber (Spec of Tech). Whom uses compression testing in-room with a calibrated mic. By comparing his measurements to known Subs I was able to simulate his room gains and apply to the Tonewinner Subs for proper numbers.

I hope this helps those looking for the best Subwoofer for whatever your budget may be. If anyone has other Subs they think compare, I will gladly add them if their competitive. The ones currently on the list are what I found to be the most relevant for $2,500 and under. Enjoy

 

[levimax]

As someone who is in the process of a sub integration project I would say the most important thing is to try to match the subs roll off and group delay with that of the mains. I don't see it mentioned much but if roll off or group delay are substantially different it make integration, which is difficult under the best circumstances, close to impossible. Sometimes this data isn't easy to come by but it is worth tracking down.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

As someone who is in the process of a sub integration project I would say the most important thing is to try to match the subs roll off and group delay with that of the mains. I don't see it mentioned much but if roll off or group delay are substantially different it make integration, which is difficult under the best circumstances, close to impossible. Sometimes this data isn't easy to come by but it is worth tracking down.

Well with both SVS & Tonewinner subs you can preselect your desired roll-off with the Apps. So that makes it really easy to integrate.

 

[Mort]

Thanks. In the future, it's easier to read plain text than your image.

 

[levimax]

Well with both SVS & Tonewinner subs you can preselect your desired roll-off with the Apps. So that makes it really easy to integrate.

Not really. I have SVS subs and they have some built in filters so you can adjust the roll off but they have GD which increases rapidly below 100 Hz. My mains speakers have virtually no GD all the way to 20 Hz. If I "time align" at say an 80 Hz crossover point the speakers are out of phase enough at 30 Hz to cause noticeable cancellation effects. On the other had is you have mains and subs with similar GD curves this is not an issue. It is "possible" to use all-pass filters to match the group delay between the mains and the subs but it is difficult and time consuming and fraught with problems. Much better to look for subs that are as similar as possible (GD curve, ported or not,) to your mains.... I wish I had known about this before I bought my subs.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Not really. I have SVS subs and they have some built in filters so you can adjust the roll off but they have GD which increases rapidly below 100 Hz. My mains speakers have virtually no GD all the way to 20 Hz. If I "time align" at say an 80 Hz crossover point the speakers are out of phase enough at 30 Hz to cause noticeable cancellation effects. On the other had is you have mains and subs with similar GD curves this is not an issue. It is "possible" to use all-pass filters to match the group delay between the mains and the subs but it is difficult and time consuming and fraught with problems. Much better to look for subs that are as similar as possible (GD curve, ported or not,) to your mains.... I wish I had known about this before I bought my subs.

I crossover based on my LCR speakers natural roll-off...80hz was never intended to be universal.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Thanks. In the future, it's easier to read plain text than your image.

I prefer using colors instead of straight txt as this helps further distinguish brands in a intermixed flow. And as I stated earlier this is my personal subwoofer list that im sharing as a tool for others. If you don't like the way I do it then move on I guess, but I do and it works much better in my opinion.

 

[levimax]

I crossover based on my LCR speakers natural roll-off...80hz was never intended to be universal.View attachment 432389View attachment 432390View attachment 432391

Frequency and crossover slopes are just one part of sub integration. Another much more complicated part is "timing". For starters SVS subs (and many others) have ~6ms delay due to DSP. They also have heavy DSP to get lower FR which adds considerable Group Delay (because everyone wants small enclosures which are really not acoustically correct for low frequencies so they have to be boosted with DSP). Since DSP can ONLY delay the signal that means the mains must be delayed (with DSP) to allow for the sub DSP delay and the inherent delay of a larger driver. Then you get into the GD where even if the timing is correct at the crossover frequency it can be way off at lower frequencies so rather than the Sub and Woofer "blending together" they will start to "cancel".

My point is anyone looking for a sub will be well served to look at how their main speakers behave at and below the crossover frequency both in regards to slope and to Group Delay and get Sub(s) that have a similar FR and GD curve. If you don't have DSP on the mains to delay them relative to the Sub you need to take that into account as well and make sure you get a sub with no built in delay (which usually means no DSP) and you will have to pay very close attention to their location.

Sub manufactures try to lead you to believe that sub integration is "easy" but that is not the case as there are so many variables the room being the biggest one. It is very easy to make the sound worse (unbalanced FR, out of sync, bloated bass) with a sub so you need to have as much going in your favor as possible so look beyond the basic "marketing specs" to make sure the sub you chose has the highest chance to work relatively seamlessly with your mains.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Frequency and crossover slopes are just one part of sub integration. Another much more complicated part is "timing". For starters SVS subs (and many others) have ~6ms delay due to DSP. They also have heavy DSP to get lower FR which adds considerable Group Delay (because everyone wants small enclosures which are really not acoustically correct for low frequencies so they have to be boosted with DSP). Since DSP can ONLY delay the signal that means the mains must be delayed (with DSP) to allow for the sub DSP delay and the inherent delay of a larger driver. Then you get into the GD where even if the timing is correct at the crossover frequency it can be way off at lower frequencies so rather than the Sub and Woofer "blending together" they will start to "cancel".

My point is anyone looking for a sub will be well served to look at how their main speakers behave at and below the crossover frequency both in regards to slope and to Group Delay and get Sub(s) that have a similar FR and GD curve. If you don't have DSP on the mains to delay them relative to the Sub you need to take that into account as well and make sure you get a sub with no built in delay (which usually means no DSP) and you will have to pay very close attention to their location.

Sub manufactures try to lead you to believe that sub integration is "easy" but that is not the case as there are so many variables the room being the biggest one. It is very easy to make the sound worse (unbalanced FR, out of sync, bloated bass) with a sub so you need to have as much going in your favor as possible so look beyond the basic "marketing specs" to make sure the sub you chose has the highest chance to work relatively seamlessly with your mains.

For HT im using Dirac Live and if it works out ill be getting Dirac ART this April update...we will see what happens.

 

[Chrispy]

A crossover of 40hz somewhat negates the effectiveness of subs. Many speakers aren't going to do as well down that low either.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

A crossover of 40hz somewhat negates the effectiveness of subs. Many speakers aren't going to do as well down that low either.

Good thing my towers have an F3 of 40hz then as tested by Erins audio corner...and thats before in-room response boosts them as well.

Im thinking between 40hz & 60hz

 

[Chrispy]

Good thing my towers have an F3 of 40hz then as tested by Erins audio corner...and thats before in-room response boosts them as well.

Im thinking between 40hz & 60hz
View attachment 432689View attachment 432690

Rather than follow some vague recommendations like that from "hometheaterpros" how about getting some measurement gear ?

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Rather than follow some vague recommendations like that from "hometheaterpros" how about getting some measurement gear ?

Hard to measure subs I haven't yet purchased. This was a discussion about the best options.

 

[Chrispy]

Hard to measure subs I haven't yet purchased. This was a discussion about the best options.

Subs or no a measurement mic is a good thing to count as basic gear.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Subs or no a measurement mic is a good thing to count as basic gear.

Already have ...now back to selecting subs based on measurements.

PSA was brought up to me but I understand Tom V doesnt lend his Subs for Review Measurements. According to Gene at Audioholics "it seemed like they were afraid to have their products subjected to our test procedure".

And Shane Lee who was forced to purchase a 2112 for his review stated "It sounded like it was gonna blow up"
"you could start to hear the driver give out"

 

[Chrispy]

Already have ...now back to selecting subs based on measurements.

PSA was brought up to me but I understand Tom V doesnt lend his Subs for Review Measurements. According to Gene at Audioholics "it seemed like they were afraid to have their products subjected to our test procedure".

And Shane Lee who was forced to purchase a 2112 for his review stated "It sounded like it was gonna blow up"
"you could start to hear the driver give out"

Didn't realize that with the concentration on crossover point. No experience with PSA myself, but shadyJ and Tom V have some uh....history. Are you going with multiple subs or a single?

 

[GXAlan]

PSA was brought up to me but I understand Tom V doesnt lend his Subs for Review Measurements.

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/62444606/

On my Trinnov, a PSA dual 12” (Subwoofer #4) was pulling off superb in-room performance. (s2410m)

It’s possible that this output is high distortion, but it does show that it’s capable of pretty high performance for cinema use.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/62444606/

On my Trinnov, a PSA dual 12” (Subwoofer #4) was pulling off superb in-room performance. (s2410m)

View attachment 432869
View attachment 432870

It’s possible that this output is high distortion, but it does show that it’s capable of pretty high performance for cinema use.

Nice, the issue I keep seeing are with low content like in Edge of Tomorrow, War of the Worlds etc where the 2112 Sub bottoms out mechanically.

So your reading on Sub #4 117.5dB once you take away in-room response of a corner load Sub (-9dB) takes it to 108.5dB. It makes me question it. As id expect in-Room with 4-Subs to be about 10dB higher. The PSA 2112 would be the model closer to that range. (However that sub was the one with reported issues bottoming out) Havent heard anything about your 2410 specifically)

The top SVS, Monolith & Tonewinner subs push high 120's in-room.

 

[AnonymousAudio]

Didn't realize that with the concentration on crossover point. No experience with PSA myself, but shadyJ and Tom V have some uh....history. Are you going with multiple subs or a single?

Dual subs

 

[mj30250]

There are a lot of issues with that PSA video, but that's a subject for another discussion.

It's true that you won't currently find any anechoic/CEA testing of PSA subs. For some that will be an understandable concern, but I'll share some in-room results below. I started with two PSA TV21s and now have four in my main setup. Subjectively speaking, they are the best performing subs I've owned (especially with music) and integrate with my mains incredibly well. I have (and have had) multiple brands of subs including Klipsch, Outlaw, HSU, Monolith, Neumann, and SVS.

All measurements were taken at the MLP at roughly a 3 meter distance from the subs, the room is just under 6000cu ft and the floor is a carpeted concrete slab.

This is a FR sweep taken at a moderate volume when I had two, I found it fairly easy to get a smooth in-room response from them and got some nice room gain below 20Hz:

With four TV21s at a "sane" volume:

Distortion for above:

High volume measurement, the house was seriously complaining at this point so I didn't push any further:

Distortion for above:

I've also RTA'd movie scenes at over 130dB and could not discern any mechanical noises or obvious distortion from the subs at all (with all four playing). The play very clean if you stay within their limits. If you don't, they don't have an aggressive limiter like many other subs do, so they will quickly start to make some unpleasant sounds. Back off a touch (or add more subs!) and then all is well.