Genelec good enough?

[ahofer]

It is fact. It fails to accommodate significant and long-established advances in speaker dispersion and the perceptual effects of dispersion. I don't seek to apologise for regressive design disguised as high performance.

Alan has made the observation/invitation below. Would you or others help me make a list of the right “probing questions”? The thing is, they have to be factual, friendly, and in good faith, I think, as opposed to leading. For instance, a question referencing that psychoacoustic research and asking if the wide baffle is the right design choice.
Alan is unusual in that he risks alienating his audience by calling out what he believes are nonsense claims by other vendors, particularly amplifier manufacturers. I really like that (@March Audio is another). But I’m all in favor of identifying where he is sailing too close to the wind, if that’s the case. In any event, it would be interesting.

Here is Alan, in the “Just how reliable are human senses” thread:

The really disappointing thing is that audio is a very mature business. All the basics were appreciated and substantially understood when our grandparents were youngsters, but has been largely forgotten. The knowledge gap between those of us on the inside of the game and those of you on the outside is immense: and that void ensures that consumers do not ask probing, awkward questions of manufacturers, who are experts at spinning a yarn and pickpocketing the consumer.

 

[sergeauckland]

I've met Alan Shaw on several occasions, and he's always struck me as someone completely honest. He's also 'old school' insofar as he doesn't suffer (audio)fools gladly, or at all, albeit he's too polite to be too obvious about it. He has alienated audio enthusiasts by claiming, like Peter Walker before him, that amplifiers all sound the same if of sufficiently low distortion, flat frequency response and most importantly, kept out of clipping. Therefore, what amplifier one uses with Harbeth loudspeakers doesn't matter, anything will do fine. Oh, and cables just need to be long enough. One can imagine how that goes down with the cable-lifters and green-pen set.

If he has a fault, and who doesn't, is that commercially he's kept away from active loudspeakers. He did offer an active version of the Monitor 40, which was discontinued a long time ago, and never repeated. Presumably not enough were sold to make it viable at the time. Commercially again, he trades on the BBC heritage, which goes down particularly well in Asia, and which if somewhat dated now in these days of DSP actives, at least follows a low coloration route rather than the 'stick out at a dealer's demo' route taken by other smaller manufacturers.

My own loudspeakers (B&W 801f) are almost the opposite of Harbeths in terms of thick heavily braced walls and small baffles, but I would be very happy listening to a pair of Monitor 40s as I was to the LS5/8. I judge a loudspeaker on how well it reproduces male speech, and Harbeths do that pretty well.

S.

 

[ahofer]

I've met Alan Shaw on several occasions, and he's always struck me as someone completely honest. He's also 'old school' insofar as he doesn't suffer (audio)fools gladly, or at all, albeit he's too polite to be too obvious about it. He has alienated audio enthusiasts by claiming, like Peter Walker before him, that amplifiers all sound the same if of sufficiently low distortion, flat frequency response and most importantly, kept out of clipping. Therefore, what amplifier one uses with Harbeth loudspeakers doesn't matter, anything will do fine. Oh, and cables just need to be long enough. One can imagine how that goes down with the cable-lifters and green-pen set.

If he has a fault, and who doesn't, is that commercially he's kept away from active loudspeakers. He did offer an active version of the Monitor 40, which was discontinued a long time ago, and never repeated. Presumably not enough were sold to make it viable at the time. Commercially again, he trades on the BBC heritage, which goes down particularly well in Asia, and which if somewhat dated now in these days of DSP actives, at least follows a low coloration route rather than the 'stick out at a dealer's demo' route taken by other smaller manufacturers.

My own loudspeakers (B&W 801f) are almost the opposite of Harbeths in terms of thick heavily braced walls and small baffles, but I would be very happy listening to a pair of Monitor 40s as I was to the LS5/8. I judge a loudspeaker on how well it reproduces male speech, and Harbeths do that pretty well.

S.

They sell an active version of the 30.1, see “studio” on their website.

I hear string instruments a lot, since my wife plays-in the same room as my system. And I go to chamber music concerts a lot. I tend to judge timbre on that.

Vocals sound very natural on Harbeth, but I never know what’s been processed in the recording, so I don’t think I know the source as well Operatic vocals aren’t too useful either.

Good memories-the first speakers I had that I really appreciated for clean fidelity were B&W, bought in 1983 or so. Sold for Magnepans in 1987. Then Thiels in 1993. And Harbeth (with a residence downsizing) in 2018.

 

[Ilkless]

Commercially again, he trades on the BBC heritage, which goes down particularly well in Asia, and which if somewhat dated now in these days of DSP actives, at least follows a low coloration route rather than the 'stick out at a dealer's demo' route taken by other smaller manufacturers.

My own loudspeakers (B&W 801f) are almost the opposite of Harbeths in terms of thick heavily braced walls and small baffles, but I would be very happy listening to a pair of Monitor 40s as I was to the LS5/8. I judge a loudspeaker on how well it reproduces male speech, and Harbeths do that pretty well.

S.

Again, his "low colouration" route was good for it's time but is remarkably stagnant given the advances we have made on directivity control, loudspeaker preference and the perceptual effects of speaker directivity. There were off-axis graphs of several Harbeth designs, including their flagship. All show a glaring directivity mismatch that cannot and should not be apologised for.

And I think there is a spectrum between thin-wall passive monitor and DSP active. There are plenty of passives that either use waveguides, a well-sized midrange driver or both that have on-axis just as smooth and off-axis much smoother. These designs are well-known on this forum so I don't think it bears much repeating (Revel, NHT, Ascend, even Focal with the Aria series and several more).

 

[TimVG]

I believe A. Shaw to be objectively minded - but alas uses a not up-to-date version of the known science with regards to psychoacoustics and appears to be stuck within his own bubble. Their radial cone material was developed to offset issues that arise when trying to cross a driver somewhat higher than normal for its respective size. The model 30 I heard some years ago suffered from severe chuffing, using non-flared ports doesn't help. Little to no focus is being put on off-axis behaviour as previously noted. They all seem to feature a slight mid-bass bump to offset the lack off extension and to improve low-level listening. The designs could easily be improved upon without sacrificing any of their 'traditional' methods.

 

[ahofer]

I will extend the OT-Harbeth dialogue very briefly just to say thank you. I learned a few things. And thanks for the mostly neutral tone, which helps one absorb new information without defensiveness. If there’s more to be said on the topic I will say it in a thread on off-axis response or the brand.

apologies to the others and back to 1ET400 er...Genelec.

 

[Cortes]

I'm listenning to my 8331 ( single uni!, no stereo) in my office, and after a height adjustment I'm having the best sound I've heard here. Before I used proac monitors + class A amps. The single 8331 sounds really much better.

I'm having issues with the GLM. The measurments of the kit are different from what I get from umik+rew. Anyway, I'm in the first stages, just learning.

 

[ahofer]

What about the home active series- the G1-G5. Anyone got them?

 

[pozz]

I judge a loudspeaker on how well it reproduces male speech, and Harbeths do that pretty well.

From what I remember Shaw explicitly prefers speech as program material for speaker testing (which if I remember right was a BBC preference as well), so that make sense.

 

[watchnerd]

What about the home active series- the G1-G5. Anyone got them?

Aren't they just the same shapes, but in white plastic instead of greyish plastic?

 

[ahofer]

Aren't they just the same shapes, but in white plastic instead of greyish plastic?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B01G493ITK

Not just white, I guess.

 

[TimVG]

The 8*** series are made from cast aluminium - not plastic. Home versions are technically (almost) the same as the studio versions but have RCA instead of XLR inputs and no variable gain (at least on my G2).

 

[Juhazi]

I haven't participated earlier and don't want to make a homerun now either... I have never owned any Genelecs, but naturally I hear them everywhere - at barber shops, schools, hotels, auditoriums, restaurants, concert halls, homes, garages, mancaves etc. since the beginning. I have visited the factory once with Finnish hifi club members.

One thing we must remember, that these are optimized or PA use and to tolerate abuse. BR tuning is rather high on most models and there is electric (or dsp) highpass to protect woofer(s) This means that small-midsize models sound thin and clinical in a large living room, they need subwoofer's help. Dont expect miracles from the G series or small 8's.

 

[Julf]

I hear them everywhere - at barber shops, schools, hotels, auditoriums, restaurants, concert halls, homes, garages, mancaves etc. since the beginning.

Indeed. And above all in studios and in multimedia demos.

One thing we must remember, that these are optimized or PA use and to tolerate abuse.

Some are. The domestic lines less so.

Dont expect miracles from the G series or small 8's.

Don't expect miracles from any speakers of that size. Then again, Genelec has some pretty impressive subwoofers too.

 

[ahofer]

The 8*** series are made from cast aluminium - not plastic. Home versions are technically (almost) the same as the studio versions but have RCA instead of XLR inputs and no variable gain (at least on my G2).

The G3-5 have XLR. But do you mean to say the home versions are plastic?

And on the G5, linear from 40Hz is impressive.

https://www.genelec.com/sites/default/files/media/Speakers for home/G Series/G Three/g3_g4_g5_opman_c.pdf

 

[TimVG]

No the home versions are cast aluminium as well

 

[Tks]

BTW the title of this thread is like "Mercedes Class E good enough?".

Not with most Mercedes these days with that fake ass exhaust shroud bullshit

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-mercedes-is-the-biggest-offender-129135.html

 

[Cortes]

Not with most Mercedes these days with that fake ass exhaust shroud bullshit

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-mercedes-is-the-biggest-offender-129135.html

yes, and their Class A.... I guess is difficult to resist easy money.

 

[Tks]

yes, and their Class A.... I guess is difficult to resist easy money.

Ferrari’s dumb ass has succumbed to this nonsense as well in their California series of cars..

Enzo would be rolling in his grave right about now.

Interesting how things get better and easier in the future, we see companies double down and cut even more corners even as technology affords them better quality means of production, and simply everything else in relation..

 

[stevenswall]

Genelec seems to be cutting more corners too, but it's for loudness. Look at the spec for the 8260 frequency response vs the 8361a that 'replaces' it. One is more accurate, and has more extended bass. The other is louder. Guess which is which.

Just need a crazy speaker that is a mutation of an 8331 with a Devialet Phantom. Insane imaging, accurate sound, incredible bass extension, in a small box for nearfield.