7.1.4 setup, Genelec vs KEF

[juliangst]

I never tested myself but the test I found on youtube from a reliable installer mostly detected 7.1.2 coded into movies. Which makes probably sense for big audiences so everybody get's the same ceiling information?
For music 7.1.4 seems more standard.

I also feel like music is using a lot more dynamic objects that can utilize 4 top speakers than movies do (probably depends on the genre as well).

And as you said, 7.1.2 might make more sense for a movie setup because you don't get interference between the front and rear top row of speakers which would play the same signal.

The ultimate best setup should be 7.1.6 because though if the budget and rooms allows for it:

The .2 of the 7.1.2 bed layer will still play through only 2 top speakers (those directly above) while the other 4 atmos speakers will be used if there are dynamic objects flying around
-You won't get interference and this phantom image between speakers playing the same signal but you still have enough top speakers for that 3D height effect with dynamic objects.

 

[Descartes]

The most I got out of Apple Music through MacOS was 7.1.4 which is the industry standart. I don't think 9.x.x mixes exist.

That’s unfortunate! So what’s the point of having a 9.2.6, except maybe for movies!

 

[juliangst]

That’s unfortunate! So what’s the point of having a 9.2.6, except maybe for movies!

There really is no point unless you have too much money and a large room.

Getting an AVR/AVP with more than 16 channels will be even more expensive than those additional speakers.
And all of that just for some additional sound effects that might only happen a couple of times in big blockbuster movies.

 

[Descartes]

There really is no point unless you have too much money and a large room.

Getting an AVR/AVP with more than 16 channels will be even more expensive than those additional speakers.
And all of that just for some additional sound effects that might only happen a couple of times in big blockbuster movies.

16 channels is the max for my room and budget!

 

[IamJF]

I also feel like music is using a lot more dynamic objects that can utilize 4 top speakers than movies do (probably depends on the genre as well).


The ultimate best setup should be 7.1.6 because though if the budget and rooms allows for it:
The .2 of the 7.1.2 bed layer will still play through only 2 top speakers (those directly above) while the other 4 atmos speakers will be used if there are dynamic objects flying around
-You won't get interference and this phantom image between speakers playing the same signal but you still have enough top speakers for that 3D height effect with dynamic objects.

That' a very interesting idea! Cause just copying a .2 signal to 4 speakers comes with it's own problems!
I'm building only 2 ceiling speakers at my home installation cause I can't position 4 properly. But the .6 idea is solid, I could posoition 4 perfectly and needed to do some tricks with the rear ceiling speakers.
Ceiling speakers are not the most expensive part of the home cinema but need preperation during construction - will check the dimensions and do some extra cables ...

 

[Vacceo]

16 channels is the max for my room and budget!

Do you actually have room to use such amount of speakers? Even a 7.X.4 requires around 25 to 30 square meters to get a decent separation.

 

[Descartes]

Do you actually have room to use such amount of speakers? Even a 7.X.4 requires around 25 to 30 square meters to get a decent separation.

My room is 6 m long x 5.5 meter wide and 3 m tall so I think it’s big enough and we use one row of seats!

 

[Vacceo]

My room is 6 m long x 5.5 meter wide and 3 m tall so I think it’s big enough and we use one row of seats!

I'd say I agree with that! That is a space with potential.

 

[Descartes]

Do you actually have room to use such amount of speakers? Even a 7.X.4 requires around 25 to 30 square meters to get a decent separation.

If you use KEF or Genelec the one which are single point source they work great!

 

[this is me]

Hello,

next year I will be able to create my own home cinema/ music listening room in the basement, room is big (enough) and symmetrical. Around 27m2 / 290 square feet.

I really want to spend much time in this room, 50% of the use will be simply to listen to music. Its kind of unrelaxing to look on black walls and the white screen typically for a cinema room with projector so I decided to use a big OLED TV and create more of an relaxing area. Don't get me wrong, best audio/video quality is the goal here and the room will be acoustically planed/treated.

After calculating a little bit I found two possible high end setups for this room:

Genelec 8361A Front + Center
Genelec 8341A Rear
Genelec 8331A Atmos

or

KEF Blade One (or Two) Meta Front
KEF Reference 4 Meta Center
KEF R3 Meta Rear
KEF LS50 Meta Atmos

The KEF Setup is a bit more expensive, if you use amps like the TP RA3 this would also be possible.

I really don't know which setup is better on the paper, I know the Genelec Ones, they sound impressive. But I think, specially in Stereo, the KEF Blade can outperform the 8361A a little bit, the Uni-Q Driver offers a little bit lower distortion and the bass drivers are bigger which should also help. (for Stereo) The Blade has even a little bit better directivity plot the the Genelec. But I really dont know how well the Blade/Reference will mix with the R3, perhaps there will be a noticeable difference in sound between front and rear.

The Genelec Setup will have one big benefit, because all of the speakers are part of the One series, there will be nearly no sound difference between the channels. Not sure if the KEF HF/MF driver is the same in the Blade and the R3. And the 8331A for the ceiling should easily outperform the KEF LS50. (R3 is to big for the ceiling, room is only 2,2m/7,22ft high)

So what do you think, which setup is superior? Of course, I will listen to all of those speakers before buying. It will be impossible to hear all speakers as a surround setup so I need to decide with stereo speaker pairs.

Thanks!

Greetings from Germany,
Jan

Have you decided on which route you’re going?

I have Blade One Meta, R6 for center, and LS50 Meta for my occasional 5 channel movie set upright now. I’m looking to build up from this to a 7.2.4 with a Trinnov Altitude 32 to watch more movies with the kids.
I’m looking to upgrade the R6 center to Reference 4C.
Add R3 meta for the side surround. Or just get another pair of LS50M for the side surround. For the height, I’m looking at the Kef CI200RR-THX.
Not sure what to do with the sub. The Reference 8B is a dual 9” sub which the blade already have four 9” woofer each(it’s basically two reference 8B in each Blade). I’m not sure if the sub is necessary?
Also, I’m not sure if surrounds would benefit from a Reference 1? My room size is 18’x24’ with 9’ vaulted ceiling to 16’ flat in the middle high.

 

[Descartes]

Have you decided on which route you’re going?

I have Blade One Meta, R6 for center, and LS50 Meta for my occasional 5 channel movie set upright now. I’m looking to build up from this to a 7.2.4 with a Trinnov Altitude 32 to watch more movies with the kids.
I’m looking to upgrade the R6 center to Reference 4C.
Add R3 meta for the side surround. Or just get another pair of LS50M for the side surround. For the height, I’m looking at the Kef CI200RR-THX.
Not sure what to do with the sub. The Reference 8B is a dual 9” sub which the blade already have four 9” woofer each(it’s basically two reference 8B in each Blade). I’m not sure if the sub is necessary?
Also, I’m not sure if surrounds would benefit from a Reference 1? My room size is 18’x24’ with 9’ vaulted ceiling to 16’ flat in the middle high.

Here are my suggestions
Since you already have the Blade One Meta

Get the following:
- References 4C
- 3 Pairs of Reference One Meta for front wide, surround and back
- 6 KEF Ci250RRM-THX for in ceiling
- Subs I would go with two
JL Audio g213v2

 

[IamJF]

Whatever you get and like Descartes described - get the same speakers for rears and the same for ceilings. Ideally also 3 identical speakers at the front.
When ATMOs is not the main use of your system the CI200RR ceiling speakers are fine. They go loud and they behave. 6 ceiling speakers would have the benefit that you can decode films with just 2 ceiling speakers coded right but also music where 4 and objects are used (when the receiver is doing that right)
The size of the rears depends on your listening distance and level. For lower/normal level and not to far distance a set of LS50M could do it. But I'm pretty sure you want to upgrade these down the road when you compare them to the rest of your speaker set ;-) I would also think about some R5/R7 speakers for rears - your room is big and with Dirac ART (which would speak against Trinnov) some low frequency power from rears would be a benefit.

 

[this is me]

Reference 4C Meta will be my next purchase. Since my Blades are custom color white with blue Uni-Q, I have to get the 4C to match. I need to ask them to take the Reference 4C in white and put in the black LF drivers found in their black version. The last time I custom ordered the Blades, it took them 8 months to deliver.
If I’m going the Reference 1 Meta route for surrounds, I would also do the same custom color. The problem I have with getting the Reference 1 is that by the time I add the stands, the cost would be almost the same as Reference 3. And wouldn’t a R7 or even R11 be better? I can’t do custom color on the R series but who cares(?).
I’m probably 7 feet for the rear surrounds. I haven’t watched enough movies to decide if the LS50M are good enough.

 

[Vacceo]

Your system sounds like a great candidate for Dirac ART due to the extension of the speakers.

 

[quattro98]

• I would upgrade center to either Reference 2C or 4C. Both are fine.
• I don't see the benefit of the Reference 1 Meta over R3 Meta for surrounds. I would upgrade all surrounds to your choice of R3 Meta, R2 Meta, or R6 Meta depending on your space and installation needs. KEF doesn't really offer good wall mounting options, so you would have to come up with something (if you're using stands, I would get the R3 Meta). If your space allows, I would choose the Ci3160RLM-THX over any of the in-room models for a cleaner installation.
• For overhead speakers, the Ci250RRM-THX is great if size/budget allow. It's a 3 way speaker with a small diameter midrange and tweeter which make for wide dispersion, high output, and good bass extension.

Have you decided on which route you’re going?

I have Blade One Meta, R6 for center, and LS50 Meta for my occasional 5 channel movie set upright now. I’m looking to build up from this to a 7.2.4 with a Trinnov Altitude 32 to watch more movies with the kids.
I’m looking to upgrade the R6 center to Reference 4C.
Add R3 meta for the side surround. Or just get another pair of LS50M for the side surround. For the height, I’m looking at the Kef CI200RR-THX.
Not sure what to do with the sub. The Reference 8B is a dual 9” sub which the blade already have four 9” woofer each(it’s basically two reference 8B in each Blade). I’m not sure if the sub is necessary?
Also, I’m not sure if surrounds would benefit from a Reference 1? My room size is 18’x24’ with 9’ vaulted ceiling to 16’ flat in the middle high.

 

[this is me]

The CI250RRM has a cut out dimension of 11.8”. However, it also has a listed external dimension of 13.62”. I think the external dimension is with the grill on. 11.8” will work and will fit between the joists/rafters. However, with 16” on center framing with 2x12 joists/rafters, the 13.62” will not. I will have to clarify this with Kef.

As for Dirac, I never bother to upgrade the MDC on my NAD M17V1 to the AM17 board to get Dirac. I never used the built in Audysee on the M17V1(wasn’t impressed). Not sure if AM17 Dirac Live will support Dirac ART. I just sent an email to NAD about this.

As for using the R6M as surround, I have thought about this. When I get the Reference 4C for center, I was considering keeping the R6M and get another one to do surround. However, they lack the mounting holes to place on the stand properly. I have two young kids and would not have a speaker just rest on the stand. So this is probably not worth the effort.
The room as is right now. I think I can swing 4 height channels. Not sure about 6 for proper placement and spacing.
The Blades are at least 3’ from the wall and the sofa is at least 5’ from the wall.
Stereo has been my priority. Always thought surround speakers are just there to make noise.
I have wired up for 7.2 set up right now but only using 5.0 for movies.

 

[Vacceo]

With ART you should be able to put the surrounds to some use beyond noise, that's why I mentioned it.

If NAD has planned upgrades, it's a great excuse to go ahead.

 

[Descartes]

The CI250RRM has a cut out dimension of 11.8”. However, it also has a listed external dimension of 13.62”. I think the external dimension is with the grill on. 11.8” will work and will fit between the joists/rafters. However, with 16” on center framing with 2x12 joists/rafters, the 13.62” will not. I will have to clarify this with Kef.

As for Dirac, I never bother to upgrade the MDC on my NAD M17V1 to the AM17 board to get Dirac. I never used the built in Audysee on the M17V1(wasn’t impressed). Not sure if AM17 Dirac Live will support Dirac ART. I just sent an email to NAD about this.

As for using the R6M as surround, I have thought about this. When I get the Reference 4C for center, I was considering keeping the R6M and get another one to do surround. However, they lack the mounting holes to place on the stand properly. I have two young kids and would not have a speaker just rest on the stand. So this is probably not worth the effort.
The room as is right now. I think I can swing 4 height channels. Not sure about 6 for proper placement and spacing.
The Blades are at least 3’ from the wall and the sofa is at least 5’ from the wall.
Stereo has been my priority. Always thought surround speakers are just there to make noise.
I have wired up for 7.2 set up right now but only using 5.0 for movies. View attachment 346430

How far apart are your Blades, it seems they are over 10 feet apart?
R6M for surround would work great!

 

[Ron Texas]

Genelec 8361A Front + Center
Genelec 8341A Rear
Genelec 8331A Atmos

or

KEF Blade One (or Two) Meta Front
KEF Reference 4 Meta Center
KEF R3 Meta Rear
KEF LS50 Meta Atmos

Money can't buy you happiness, but it's nice to have lots of it.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I would switch to a an all Genelec system