Genelec good enough?

[Ron Texas]

My active Genelecs are still doing fine after 20 years of pretty much daily use.

That's a testimonial.

 

[flowjm]

You might also consider the Neumann KH80DSP.

 

[Ron Texas]

In short I am annoyed that greedy US distributors are charging more without sales tax than the product sells for in Europe with a high VAT. It's not all of them, but it certainly applies to KEF and Genelec. On top of that, KEF just raised their US prices around 10% due to the increased tariffs on Chinese goods. A lot of loudspeakers are built in China. Perhaps some EU based manufacturers with a substantial US market will benefit.

 

[digititus]

I've had 3 sets of Genelecs over the years (still have 2). Very happy with them. Never thought about 'upgrading them.' They do the job admirably.

 

[LTig]

In short I am annoyed that greedy US distributors are charging more without sales tax than the product sells for in Europe with a high VAT. It's not all of them, but it certainly applies to KEF and Genelec. On top of that, KEF just raised their US prices around 10% due to the increased tariffs on Chinese goods. A lot of loudspeakers are built in China. Perhaps some EU based manufacturers with a substantial US market will benefit.

The same applies in the other direction. Maggies for example are more than twice as expensive in good old Europe. When I looked for a replacement of my old MG 1.6 the equivalent model had a price of $ 1750 (pair) in the US and € 3600 in Europe.

 

[LTig]

The 8050 can't compete. KEF Model 4 has way higher dynamic capabilities. You'd need to look at models like the 8361, S360, and 1237.

Looking at maximum SPL:

• the KEF is specified at 92 dB/1W/1m and 118 dB SPL max at 400W. Stereophile measured 90 dB/1W/1m so with 400W it should reach 116 dB SPL max.
• The Genelec is specified at 110 dB SPL max and requires 270W (150W bass and 120W tweeter).

For sure the KEF can play louder - if you have the power. With a 100W amplifier the KEF should not play louder than the Genelec.

But there is more to dynamics than max SPL. In my subjective experience active speakers play with more attack and more dynamics than passive speakers - the reason I think is power loss and compression in the passive crossover. This may not be the case for this KEF model since it is a reference model and should have a proper dimensioned crossover.

You'd need to look at models like the 8361, S360, and 1237.

I agree regarding max SPL. But if the OP does not need that much SPL a smaller model may suffice, and a sub can handle deep bass.

 

[Ron Texas]

The same applies in the other direction. Maggies for example are more than twice as expensive in good old Europe. When I looked for a replacement of my old MG 1.6 the equivalent model had a price of $ 1750 (pair) in the US and € 3600 in Europe.

You have a right to be just as pissed as I am. I can sort of see it with goods made in the US or the EU, but when the stuff is coming out of a Chinese factory the only extra cost in the US is duties, which are most likely temporary. Perhaps KEF's US distributor is not captive and more likely, Magnepan's is not. Remember, Magnepan is a very small company, even smaller than Genelec. I suppose different items will be more or less attractive due to price and that's why we see different views depending on the member's location.

Of course we now have weird things like Dynaudio which is owned by an Asian company and Harmann is now owned by Samsung while it's Revel speakers are made in Indonesia. B &W is owned by a US based tech company. I wonder what the long game is of some of these acquisitions.

 

[HammerSandwich]

The Genelec is specified at 110 dB SPL max and requires 270W (150W bass and 120W tweeter).

Let's add that this spec is for >100Hz. If that's near the woofer's Xmax, it limits around 100dB at 50Hz. No doubt the KEF's 2x 10" drivers can do more on the bottom.

 

[Ron Texas]

Looking at maximum SPL:

• the KEF is specified at 92 dB/1W/1m and 118 dB SPL max at 400W. Stereophile measured 90 dB/1W/1m so with 400W it should reach 116 dB SPL max.
• The Genelec is specified at 110 dB SPL max and requires 270W (150W bass and 120W tweeter).

For sure the KEF can play louder - if you have the power. With a 100W amplifier the KEF should not play louder than the Genelec.

But there is more to dynamics than max SPL. In my subjective experience active speakers play with more attack and more dynamics than passive speakers - the reason I think is power loss and compression in the passive crossover. This may not be the case for this KEF model since it is a reference model and should have a proper dimensioned crossover.

I agree regarding max SPL. But if the OP does not need that much SPL a smaller model may suffice, and a sub can handle deep bass.

It's not a good idea to compare published speaker specifications, even if they were measured in the same place by the same people. There is a lot of fudging going on, and the measurements often don't tell the whole story. We know that flat on axis and smooth off axis is preferred by a statistically significant margin. That's important. If you want to go really loud, get M2's with 4x1250 watts.

 

[Music1969]

But there is more to dynamics than max SPL. In my subjective experience active speakers play with more attack and more dynamics than passive speakers - the reason I think is power loss and compression in the passive crossover. This may not be the case for this KEF model since it is a reference model and should have a proper dimensioned crossover.

There was a great discussion about speaker dynamics here:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...speakers-in-particular-speaker-dynamics.7742/

 

[thumbslapper]

I"m surprised the Focal pro line isn't talked about more here - they are very highly regarded in pro audio circles. I record/play in a studio that has the Solo6 (has the berylium tweeter), and I have the CMS65 in my home studio. The Trio11's seem pretty well suited...

Not that Genelec or Dynaudio don't have great units, but I'd prefer a Focal (in the studio at the very least). Not sure how they work as home speakers tho but I enjoy my CMS65's a ton.

 

[Vintage57]

In short I am annoyed that greedy US distributors are charging more without sales tax than the product sells for in Europe with a high VAT. It's not all of them, but it certainly applies to KEF and Genelec. On top of that, KEF just raised their US prices around 10% due to the increased tariffs on Chinese goods. A lot of loudspeakers are built in China. Perhaps some EU based manufacturers with a substantial US market will benefit.

FWIW. Neumann are designed in Germany and built in Ireland.

 

[Ilkless]

FWIW. Neumann are designed in Germany and built in Ireland.

Yes, and the fact that it is also to do so without skimping on anything is an indictment of hifi darlings. KH120A is 1.4k/pair, has international warranty (so you don't have to buy it locally), low-noise class AB biamplification, active crossover, low-diffraction optimised low-diffraction cast , ported aluminium cabinet and a state-of-the-art waveguide with seamless directivity matching. The performance is exemplary within its size and class. There are many 1.5K/pr passive speakers the same size made overseas and resort to generic MDF boxes without waveguides.

 

[audiophool]

Looking at maximum SPL:

• the KEF is specified at 92 dB/1W/1m and 118 dB SPL max at 400W. Stereophile measured 90 dB/1W/1m so with 400W it should reach 116 dB SPL max.
• The Genelec is specified at 110 dB SPL max and requires 270W (150W bass and 120W tweeter).

For sure the KEF can play louder - if you have the power. With a 100W amplifier the KEF should not play louder than the Genelec.

But there is more to dynamics than max SPL. In my subjective experience active speakers play with more attack and more dynamics than passive speakers - the reason I think is power loss and compression in the passive crossover. This may not be the case for this KEF model since it is a reference model and should have a proper dimensioned crossover.

I agree regarding max SPL. But if the OP does not need that much SPL a smaller model may suffice, and a sub can handle deep bass.

It's not just peak SPL, but how much distortion there is at a given output level. That KEF model is a monster with 2x10" bass drivers, 2x6.5" lower midrange, 6.5" midrange, and 1" tweeter.

 

[splattened]

Yes, and the fact that it is also to do so without skimping on anything is an indictment of hifi darlings. KH120A is 1.4k/pair, has international warranty (so you don't have to buy it locally), low-noise class AB biamplification, active crossover, low-diffraction optimised low-diffraction cast , ported aluminium cabinet and a state-of-the-art waveguide with seamless directivity matching. The performance is exemplary within its size and class. There are many 1.5K/pr passive speakers the same size made overseas and resort to generic MDF boxes without waveguides.

I was considering the KH 120 A earlier, but then realized it lacks DSP on that particular model unless you also buy the KH 750 DSP D subwoofer which alone costs as much as a pair of 120s. So it's currently $1400 for the speakers without DSP or about $2750 for speakers + sub that enables you to use DSP on the whole system.

The Genelecs seem to have their own quirks. You have to buy the GLM kit to use DSP which adds more gear to your system. All told you're still looking at about $2100 USD for a pair of 8330As and the GLM kit. (These are the prices on Sweetwater right now, allegedly slightly discounted.)

Also looks like the Neumann DSP isn't based on doing measurements with a microphone but instead does some calculations based on manually entered data. Genelec does the usual measurements with a microphone.

Just blabbing out loud to myself now...

Are these brands known to go on any decent sales around e.g. Black Friday?

 

[Ilkless]

I was considering the KH 120 A earlier, but then realized it lacks DSP on that particular model unless you also buy the KH 750 DSP D subwoofer which alone costs as much as a pair of 120s. So it's currently $1400 for the speakers without DSP or about $2750 for speakers + sub that enables you to use DSP on the whole system.

The Genelecs seem to have their own quirks. You have to buy the GLM kit to use DSP which adds more gear to your system. All told you're still looking at about $2100 USD for a pair of 8330As and the GLM kit. (These are the prices on Sweetwater right now, allegedly slightly discounted.)

Also looks like the Neumann DSP isn't based on doing measurements with a microphone but instead does some calculations based on manually entered data. Genelec does the usual measurements with a microphone.

Just blabbing out loud to myself now...

Are these brands known to go on any decent sales around e.g. Black Friday?

You'd also need to splash out for room correction separately if you had decided to go passive. I don't see the issue. I don't know any active speaker with full measurement-based room correction capabilities that don't use a separate box, especially not at the KH120A/Genelec price.

 

[watchnerd]

Are Genelec comparable to a high end setup for home listening?

SQ, yes.

WAF, doubtful.

 

[watchnerd]

BTW the title of this thread is like "Mercedes Class E good enough?".

That's a bit of a low bar in cars, don't you think?

 

[splattened]

You'd also need to splash out for room correction separately if you had decided to go passive. I don't see the issue. I don't know any active speaker with full measurement-based room correction capabilities that don't use a separate box, especially not at the KH120A/Genelec price.

Yeah, that's true. I don't mean to make it a big issue. I'm learning about most of these products and DSP offerings for the first time.

Having said that, the Neumann KH 80 DSP A speakers appear to have DSP integrated into the speaker itself without requiring an external box. And of course the aforementioned Neumann KH 750 DSP D subwoofer also does. So it exists, but as you suggest, it seems to be the exception and not the norm. That wasn't obvious to me at first.

 

[Erik]

I don't know any active speaker with full measurement-based room correction capabilities that don't use a separate box, especially not at the KH120A/Genelec price.

The JBL LSR4300 Series had built-in room correction feature.