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SONCOZ SGP1 Stereo Amplifier Review

Rate this amplifier:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 6 1.8%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 7 2.1%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 62 18.8%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 255 77.3%

  • Total voters
    330

Axo1989

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The performance is great, and the price is fair, however, $1,100 USD is not a small amount of money, and at that price point, how a device looks, especially if you want it prominently displayed, makes a difference.

Its always fun to play "what-if" so I took a quick stab at simplifying the front-face of the amplifier. I would want to change the orange hue of the background of the VU meter, but considered that maybe that is their signature color.
View attachment 309484

NIce. Removing the mess from the VU meter display certainly helps, as does removing the LED labels. The bolts didn't bother me so much but yes they can certainly fasten from the inside.

Wow. TBH, this actually looks pretty darn good. Now make a silver version and make the meter 25% bigger. I think you can add the bolts back on too. And make it 430mm wide.

Haha, scale it up and deliver 300/600/1200 watts into 8/4/2 Ω and I'll place an order. :)
 

CleanSound

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Not going to let you off that easier.
How will that let me off easy?

You are challenging my statement because you feel otherwise. You have reasons why Denafrips power amps are/should be considered world class.

You can share what those reasons are and then I can give you my rebuttal. If you shared it and I don't give you a rebuttal that implies that I conceded and you won this argument. Unless you have no reasons.

But to be friendly, I am happy to start the conversation first. (Although, I can easily insist you go first. Because you have no authority over me.)

First what can we consider an amp world class? This is ASR, so obviously measurements is one of the key components. What does Denafrips amos measure? According to their own published specs, if does not compete well with any of the world class amps that's been measured here. If you have AP measurements of their amp, please share it.
 

ZolaIII

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From HiFi+ :

“At its heart the AHB2 has a switching power supply, which explains its diminutive size: it's a Class H design rather than Class D because it features a Class AB output stage, and it uses multiple supply rails to improve efficiency.”
It's a class G (AB+ voltage pump).
Here is a source:

Got to love paid upgrades to actually get HDMI 2.1 in receivers marketed as HDMI 2.1. Not to mention all the other issues.
It whose issue with Panasonic 2.1 HDMI chip which doesn't support full bandwidth specification. It's still the best performing AVR generation until smoke on the water (AKM factory fire) beside 4K hi variable FPS is still only a paper dream and at the time (cripto mining madness) it whosent even that much.
 

restorer-john

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The performance is great, and the price is fair, however, $1,100 USD is not a small amount of money, and at that price point, how a device looks, especially if you want it prominently displayed, makes a difference.

Its always fun to play "what-if" so I took a quick stab at simplifying the front-face of the amplifier. I would want to change the orange hue of the background of the VU meter, but considered that maybe that is their signature color.
View attachment 309484

Change the background meter panel to white/silver, the writing to black/dark, the meter needle to black or bright red and put the 'clip' LEDs above the 0dB points on the meter and we have an absolute winner. :)
 

TonyJZX

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i personally dont think $1,000 is a lot to pay for this level of performance, especially if you live in the EU lol

for a real 100w power amp this is the cost you pay for this level of engineering

what other 100w a/b is at this level at this price or less?

HOWEVER if you live outside the EU then you have to factor in the risk of no one carrying the can for this.
 

restorer-john

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HOWEVER if you live outside the EU then you have to factor in the risk of no one carrying the can for this.

What's the EU got to do with it?

Nobody cares about EU regulations outside the EU. I know we sure don't give a chit here, just a whole lot of regulatory crap in the way of doing business, as far as we are concerned. The US might pretend they care, but they really don't.

The EU is not the centre of the universe, never will be.
 

TonyJZX

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i allude to Audiofonics being a retailer for the EU, therefore you have a middleman

would i buy this living in Sydney? hell no

its funny how you seem to jump to conclusions in a really animated manner as if the EU was some kind of bogeyman... as a consumer in Australia I'm ok with more regulations that are consumer friendly... something the chinese could well take a leaf from, especially your friends at Topping.
 

CleanSound

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HOWEVER if you live outside the EU then you have to factor in the risk of no one carrying the can for this.
It all depends on the retailer. In the US, Apos is excellent, although they don't carry this brand.

But if you buy direct from the manufacturer or an overseas retailer who does not have local offices or reps, then there is no legal protection. And you are at the mercy of an oversea business, where their government and business culture does not share the same value and consumer protection as other parts of the world. Now you are dependent on that business doing the right thing and how much they value reputation. It is a risk indeed.

I've been lucky with Apos, I am on my 3rd SMSL DA-9 and the 3rd unit has the same issue and Apos is willing to give me store credit.
 

JeremyFife

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There comes a time in life of every audio enthusiast when they realise that reliability, longevity and build quality costs money. It's a very inconvenient truth.
I hear this!

So ... what are those indicators or metrics to look out for to help assess these things?
External build quality I can manage, but internal? and reliability/longevity?

Word of mouth (who's?), never buy anything until its been on sale for 5 years? Is past performance a safe indicator for new products?
 

GXAlan

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I hear this!

So ... what are those indicators or metrics to look out for to help assess these things?
External build quality I can manage, but internal? and reliability/longevity?

Word of mouth (who's?), never buy anything until its been on sale for 5 years? Is past performance a safe indicator for new products?

You are dependent on reviewers or a vendor with an in-home trial period.

Reliability/Longevity:

Metric #1: Thermal hotspots
Heat. It would be great if reviewers used a FLIR to assess electronics under standardized conditions. They're not crazy expensive and it's sort of cool that in the USA, we can buy export controlled gear like this as ordinary citizens.

@amirm and @John Atkinson : Flir is having a discount on this right now:

You need somewhat standardized conditions like "Exposed on top of a table" vs. "Enclosed in a Rack" but the key is looking for hotspots. A lot of gear, even with internal fans, are very conservative in running those fans. My Arcam SR250 had leaking/bulging capacitors after just 5 years and you'd be able to detect the heat.

Big heatsinks are only necessary if you generate heat, but big heatsinks are one of the easiest ways to cut costs/corners because it adds to shipping (across the entire supply chain cycle) and actual costs.

Stereophile pre-conditions their amplifiers before testing and I'm always surprised how many amps go into thermal protection. I'm also surprised how few other reviewers address heat. This is way more important than SINAD.

Metric #2: Look for reliability metrics like technical bulletins and availability of service manuals/replacement parts.

I have the Arcam SR250 which failed and I spent good money to repair a few months ago, including replacing the dim VFD for cosmetics. I liked the feature set of the unit.

I also bought the Arcam AV40 brand-new A-stock from Best Buy a few months ago which was DOA.

Arcam has its service documents available to the public:

Look at the current generation which was released in 2019

"Loss of audio or not turning on – possible burning smell reported." - Sept 2022

March 2023

1693759043371.png


So even 3+ years after release, they're having production issues. In the 80's when automotives had wildly different levels of reliability, Consumer Reports was wise in saying that reliability was not simply quality control during production -- cars that were unreliable were generally designed poorly from the beginning and in-field repairs wouldn't convert them into reliable cars once "fixed".

In contrast, look at the previous generation Arcam:

In 2021, they talked about capacitor failures for a 2016 product launch, but there are minimal service bulletins.

If you're considering something expensive, I try to look for service manuals for that product or at least previous generation products. Sometimes you have to spend US$ 10 to buy the service manual but I think of it as being the equivalent of petrol costs for driving to a store for a listen. The Marantz PM-10's service manual reassured me that they introduced a lot of Marantz-specific protection features on top of HypeX's protection features.

This answers your question about past-performance not predicting future performance *IF* there is a full-on redesign. It might be valid if there were subtle generational differences like Parasound HCA --> Parasound Halo --> Parasound Halo+.

Companies like E1DA don't have formal service manuals, but you'll see ready discussion of repairs, etc.

Metric #3: Consumer Service Experiences on Message Boards
Look at something like Yamaha and you'll see comments like "this broke, they couldn't fix it, so they gave me a brand new, upgraded model".

If you look at Accuphase, you have "I bought this from an authorized dealer and they took care of me" versus "I bought this as a gray-market import with aftermarket voltage change and they explained that there was no warranty."

Some of the smaller companies here have reports like "they ignored my emails" or "I was asked to falsify customs declarations".

If you look at Soncoz, they recalled the ESS hump DACs in the field, published an "open source" description of one fix for the ESS hump and clearly have made efforts to follow through. That's good.

My Raphaelite had a dented transformer cover and I was able to get a replacement cover shipped to me from the retailer.

The consumer service experiences reflect a sampling-bias of
a) people with problems
b) people who felt that their problems were not addressed properly

But that's still important. I'm less worried about reading about products that failed (although where there's smoke, there's fire) but more about the response to those failures.
 

johnybear

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Here is a picture of my beloved Yamaha A-S2200, it probably measures like shit. But there is a brand history that stretches back to over 100 years with a clean, timeless design.

Look at those UV meters, proper and clean. There is no gaudiness and cheapo extras (Although sometimes I keep the UV meters off for no other good reasons)

View attachment 309153
Good example of vu meters done right. The sgp1 vu meters are plastic not glass.
 

ahofer

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JeremyFife

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You are dependent on reviewers or a vendor with an in-home trial period.

Reliability/Longevity:

Metric #1: Thermal hotspots
Heat. It would be great if reviewers used a FLIR to assess electronics under standardized conditions. They're not crazy expensive and it's sort of cool that in the USA, we can buy export controlled gear like this as ordinary citizens.

@amirm and @John Atkinson : Flir is having a discount on this right now:

You need somewhat standardized conditions like "Exposed on top of a table" vs. "Enclosed in a Rack" but the key is looking for hotspots. A lot of gear, even with internal fans, are very conservative in running those fans. My Arcam SR250 had leaking/bulging capacitors after just 5 years and you'd be able to detect the heat.

Big heatsinks are only necessary if you generate heat, but big heatsinks are one of the easiest ways to cut costs/corners because it adds to shipping (across the entire supply chain cycle) and actual costs.

Stereophile pre-conditions their amplifiers before testing and I'm always surprised how many amps go into thermal protection. I'm also surprised how few other reviewers address heat. This is way more important than SINAD.

Metric #2: Look for reliability metrics like technical bulletins and availability of service manuals/replacement parts.

I have the Arcam SR250 which failed and I spent good money to repair a few months ago, including replacing the dim VFD for cosmetics. I liked the feature set of the unit.

I also bought the Arcam AV40 brand-new A-stock from Best Buy a few months ago which was DOA.

Arcam has its service documents available to the public:

Look at the current generation which was released in 2019

"Loss of audio or not turning on – possible burning smell reported." - Sept 2022

March 2023

View attachment 309583

So even 3+ years after release, they're having production issues. In the 80's when automotives had wildly different levels of reliability, Consumer Reports was wise in saying that reliability was not simply quality control during production -- cars that were unreliable were generally designed poorly from the beginning and in-field repairs wouldn't convert them into reliable cars once "fixed".

In contrast, look at the previous generation Arcam:

In 2021, they talked about capacitor failures for a 2016 product launch, but there are minimal service bulletins.

If you're considering something expensive, I try to look for service manuals for that product or at least previous generation products. Sometimes you have to spend US$ 10 to buy the service manual but I think of it as being the equivalent of petrol costs for driving to a store for a listen. The Marantz PM-10's service manual reassured me that they introduced a lot of Marantz-specific protection features on top of HypeX's protection features.

This answers your question about past-performance not predicting future performance *IF* there is a full-on redesign. It might be valid if there were subtle generational differences like Parasound HCA --> Parasound Halo --> Parasound Halo+.

Companies like E1DA don't have formal service manuals, but you'll see ready discussion of repairs, etc.

Metric #3: Consumer Service Experiences on Message Boards
Look at something like Yamaha and you'll see comments like "this broke, they couldn't fix it, so they gave me a brand new, upgraded model".

If you look at Accuphase, you have "I bought this from an authorized dealer and they took care of me" versus "I bought this as a gray-market import with aftermarket voltage change and they explained that there was no warranty."

Some of the smaller companies here have reports like "they ignored my emails" or "I was asked to falsify customs declarations".

If you look at Soncoz, they recalled the ESS hump DACs in the field, published an "open source" description of one fix for the ESS hump and clearly have made efforts to follow through. That's good.

My Raphaelite had a dented transformer cover and I was able to get a replacement cover shipped to me from the retailer.

The consumer service experiences reflect a sampling-bias of
a) people with problems
b) people who felt that their problems were not addressed properly

But that's still important. I'm less worried about reading about products that failed (although where there's smoke, there's fire) but more about the response to those failures.
Thank you, that's comprehensive and interesting

I've linked it to the thread on Amp Reliability... trying to get back on topic
Thread 'Reliable amps' https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/reliable-amps.47415/
 

musicforcities

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I doubt it when it comes to audio. Here are some products from your home country:

122riviera.2.jpg


You call this pretty? How about them fonts?

file.jpg


More fonts to entertain. How about this one?


1422986852Flight_3_S_silver_2.jpg


That's a $5000 product with stamped sheet metal on top.

The problem is not the nationality. The problem is that these are small companies and the design engineer attempts at some kind of industrial design with or without external help.
lol. Way to stamp out gross generalizations and stereotypes: with empirical evidence (photos) …nice
 

AltoVariago

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2023
Messages
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49
I doubt it when it comes to audio. Here are some products from your home country:

122riviera.2.jpg


You call this pretty? How about them fonts?

file.jpg


More fonts to entertain. How about this one?


1422986852Flight_3_S_silver_2.jpg


That's a $5000 product with stamped sheet metal on top.

The problem is not the nationality. The problem is that these are small companies and the design engineer attempts at some kind of industrial design with or without external help.
You can like it or not, but Sonus Faber opened new vistas in the field of loudspeaker manufacturing with a never seen before design and wood craftsmanship.

A loudspeaker was an ugly box to hide, sonus faber made it something you are proud to show in your design living room.
 

Spocko

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Thank you, that's comprehensive and interesting

I've linked it to the thread on Amp Reliability... trying to get back on topic
Thread 'Reliable amps' https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/reliable-amps.47415/
If reliability and customer service (ownership experience unrelated to performance) is the number one factor in purchasing an amplifier, there is a price premium to be paid. Reliability alone does not tell the whole story because every electronic product has a failure rate - even if extraordinarily low, some poor buyer always loses this failure lottery and will get a dud, which is when customer service takes over and the product earns its price premium with longer warranty coverage, responsive customer support, prompt repairs or replacement, etc.
 
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