Size does matter for music?

[Battlebeast]

Your 15" driver likely had a crossover at or below 200hz. I'd be surprised if it were even that high. Maybe check to see what the crossover was/is to be sure if it's in the area where you are now having issues.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

Are your speakers are Infinity Reference 253?

They are reviewed by @Amir here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../infinity-reference-253-review-speaker.17923/

Here is a comment by an owner later in the thread:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-253-review-speaker.17923/page-9#post-1617393

Based on the measurements and that owner comment, I really think you have a room-mode and/or setup problem, not a fundamental problem with smaller drivers.

Have you compared your newer speakers with the old ones in the same room? It's not clear if you've done this.

I bought a complete 7 speaker system at the same time/price that reviewer did. I recently did the same with the JBL Stage when they were being liquidated These speakers all got high praises for their accuracy.

I had the same issue with both the Infinity towers and the JBL towers in multiple rooms.

I actually measured in different rooms. The 15"s have been in the other room and sounded perfect and nearly identical in any room in the house. This is music that I have been listening to almost daily for 40 years, the measurement just gives me a reference point on where in the spectrum the hole is.

If you set the receiver to biamp, can you output the front channels to 2 different speakers at the same time?

 

[Sokel]

I bought a complete 7 speaker system at the same time/price that reviewer did. I recently did the same with the JBL Stage when they were being liquidated These speakers all got high praises for their accuracy.

I had the same issue with both the Infinity towers and the JBL towers in multiple rooms.

I actually measured in different rooms. The 15"s have been in the other room and sounded perfect and nearly identical in any room in the house. This is music that I have been listening to almost daily for 40 years, the measurement just gives me a reference point on where in the spectrum the hole is.

If you set the receiver to biamp, can you output the front channels to 2 different speakers at the same time?

Have a look at this thread.

Creating bass weight and impact?

I was recently at a live concert in a large venue and, as I often do in this situation, noticed the weight and impact of the bass notes. They hit with a physical energy you can feel and which makes live music so exciting. Note I'm not saying the notes are super low, just powerful My home...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And yes,size and SPL ability matters,specially with the music you listen to.
You can't get around physics.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

Your 15" driver likely had a crossover at or below 200hz. I'd be surprised if it were even that high. Maybe check to see what the crossover was/is to be sure if it's in the area where you are now having issues.

Woofer is wired straight just caps for the mids and tweeter. Probably why very little change in output when setting them to small and crossed over at 80hz in the pioneer amp. They are just a pair of 25 year old bottom end JBL's. They replaced a pair of even older 12" Pioneers with a pair of CV AT-8 as speaker B with a similar sound.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

Have a look at this thread.

Creating bass weight and impact?

I was recently at a live concert in a large venue and, as I often do in this situation, noticed the weight and impact of the bass notes. They hit with a physical energy you can feel and which makes live music so exciting. Note I'm not saying the notes are super low, just powerful My home...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And yes,size and SPL ability matters,specially with the music you listen to.
You can't get around physics.

That is exactly it, the 100-250Hz "chest thump!" I no longer listen to music at those volumes but recognize that feeling so vividly.

I am gonna get a $59 dual 12" carpeted speaker box, drop a pair of 40-500hz 8ohm woofers in it and run it as speaker B!!! Gonna call it the Retro Heavy Metal Chest Thumper!!! For $150 why not, worst case drop it in my wife's minivan.



Then save up for the CV since I cannot find anyone else who makes large woofer speakers for less than a house downpayment.

I do find that thread interesting how it went from > 100hz to 40hz and then a subwoofer size contest.

 

[DWPress]

If you like it loud with good bass/sub bass response then there is truly nothing like big drivers moving air and despite the numbers - smaller systems just can't get there without bending a few laws of phsysics and often there are consequences. If you're pushing those 5.25" speakers into the high 80-90dB realm they aren't going to be happy unless crossed higher to the sub(s) which may be equally unhappy at that SPL.

Room EQ can help get you back to the sound you like. Have any REW sweeps or MMM measurements to share?

 

[Deleted member 69358]

If you like it loud with good bass/sub bass response then there is truly nothing like big drivers moving air and despite the numbers - smaller systems just can't get there without bending a few laws of phsysics and often there are consequences. If you're pushing those 5.25" speakers into the high 80-90dB realm they aren't going to be happy unless crossed higher to the sub(s) which may be equally unhappy at that SPL.

Room EQ can help get you back to the sound you like. Have any REW sweeps or MMM measurements to share?

According to the SPL meter on my phone for movies, It is about 75db average and 90db peak. For music, about 60-70. Sub is a JBL 120p

Those are way above my paygrade

Interestingly enough, the MCACC setup on the Pioneer set the 125 and 250hz levels to -2db, I set those back to 0.

My project this weekend will be to lug the 15"s back upstairs and set them as the front speakers. Since both the sub and the 15" only go down to 40hz and the 15's are 8ohms 96db, not sure if the sub is even needed.

 

[norman bates]

For bass, not rumble (80-60hz and below), maximize cone area for the 80-200hz range.

Especially when you are sitting 10'+ away.

To me, you can run subwoofers higher than 80hz, if they are between the front 2 speakers, or 1 under each speaker.
But that setup still doesn't address trying to run the sub + 5" 2-way.....................

 

[GXAlan]

Here is my thought. May not be accurate, but it makes sense to me.

Microphones are omnidirectional. Bass is heard without localization but you can FEEL the localization.

Imagine you want 100 dB percussion at your listening position.

You are outside and have one 15” woofer that delivers that 100 dB at 50-60 Hz at 1 m to a microphone. You stand where the microphone is and you feel the percussive wavefront on your chest.

What if you turn around? Does the feeling change?

Ok, now imagine you have two 97 dB 12” woofers. Both are in front of you. 97 + 97. = 100 dB. How does it feel? Probably the same.

But what if you had 4 x 94 dB subs and they are located at N, S, W, E? The SPL is the same, but I don’t think the physical impact is the same when it’s coming from 4 directions as opposed to one direction.

 

[NIN]

Like other have said, go back to the 15" and get a couple of great subwoofers.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Here are example songs.

You can hear the stereo separation in the (mid)bass, looking at the graph the peak at 125hz comes from the right speaker and the peak around 250hz from the left. I think most of the music from the 70s and 80s is mastered this way maybe because "boomy, too big to fit on a bookshelf" 12" Pioneer bookshelf speakers were so common.

- Kiss "I love it loud"

- Black Sabbath "Iron Man"

Interestingly, most hard rock of this nature has very little real bass (sub 50Hz). Your subwoofers probably are not actually joining in a great deal with these tracks, and so all the work is actually being done by the towers.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

Interestingly, most hard rock of this nature has very little real bass (sub 50Hz). Your subwoofers probably are not actually joining in a great deal with these tracks, and so all the work is actually being done by the towers.

I think most pre 1990's music didn't go much below 100hz, maybe that is why big boomy woofers were so popular.

I was looking at some cheap passive 15" PA subwoofers and noticed they go up to 500hz. https://www.amazon.com/multicomp-PRO-Subwoofer-20Hz-500Hz-Heavy-Duty/dp/B0CG2DDPR2/ they are cheap enough to make me want to experiment, but OTOH don't want to buy stuff to toss in a landfill.

Seems like nobody else makes anything for those higher bass frequencies.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

Thanks guys for helping me with this. Your info led me to:

Bass: the Physical Sensation of Sound

Ever wonder why you can feel bass? We take a look behind the science of bass waves and the tactile sensations that they cause. Our bass experiments were quite revealing but don't try them at home.

www.audioholics.com

I have been trying for nearly a year to figure out why this "hole" existed in the system with the smaller speakers. Everyone kept telling me more subwoofers.

 

[NIN]

Thanks guys for helping me with this. Your info led me to:

Bass: the Physical Sensation of Sound

Ever wonder why you can feel bass? We take a look behind the science of bass waves and the tactile sensations that they cause. Our bass experiments were quite revealing but don't try them at home.

www.audioholics.com

I have been trying for nearly a year to figure out why this "hole" existed in the system with the smaller speakers. Everyone kept telling me more subwoofers.

Subwoofers are needed but one should not forget the 80-300Hz bass that the main speaker plays.

 

[Chrispy]

I bought into the whole "let the subwoofer handle the bass" recently and have been completely disappointed with music reproduction.

For movies it is great, but music is just horrible. Switching from 15" 3way speakers to 5.25" towers and a 12" sub sounds empty. Even with a pair of 12" subs the music sounds empty. It is like a portion of (mid) bass is just not there. I watched the spectrum on a phone app and identified the range in the 125-300hz range. I assume this is the directional bass spectrum and what is missing is the directional bass stereo effect the larger woofers provide in this range. Seems to mostly affect older heavy metal and old school rap.

How do I salvage this?

Did not read responses after this fwiw. More likely it's your integration. I particularly wouldn't compare a 3 way that had good low reproduction with a sub, as most just won't compare well performance-wise. Hard to know what your preferences are, and that's where differences are likely most different....

 

[dfuller]

I bought into the whole "let the subwoofer handle the bass" recently and have been completely disappointed with music reproduction.

For movies it is great, but music is just horrible. Switching from 15" 3way speakers to 5.25" towers and a 12" sub sounds empty. Even with a pair of 12" subs the music sounds empty. It is like a portion of (mid) bass is just not there. I watched the spectrum on a phone app and identified the range in the 125-300hz range. I assume this is the directional bass spectrum and what is missing is the directional bass stereo effect the larger woofers provide in this range. Seems to mostly affect older heavy metal and old school rap.

How do I salvage this?

Music usually needs bass management (unless multichannel), movies usually need LFE. That's the big issue here. Bass management is a pain to integrate properly, you will have to do a lot of measurements and listening. Stereo subs is preferable.

 

[Prana Ferox]

125-300hz is not the range for subwoofers. It's the range for woofers. If your towers aren't cutting it in this region EQ and room placement (i.e. move your speakers closer to the wall) is your best bet. Larger drivers aren't magically better at bass but they do tend to be quite a bit more efficient, you'd have to dump quite a bit more power into little towers to get that cubic inch displacement and you may start hitting other limits.

This is not a problem to fix with subs. Optimal design and placement for subs is almost exactly not what you want for this frequency range. What you're asking for are kick bins, and they would need different EQ than subs to blend with your mains, that you're not going to get from a stock AVR. If your mains can't get you there with EQ and placement (and assuming you're not just running out of amp) the answer is to get better (probably bigger) mains.

 

[Sancus]

Chest thump in particular is mainly from 80hz and below as the article notes, though. Not upper bass.

Anyway if you really want to know what's going on you should get a UMIK1 and use REW to run some proper sweeps at increasing output levels. It's basic, required equipment and knowhow for setting up speakers anywhere, IMO.

Then you can make a graph like this and see at what frequencies you have problems.

 

[benanders]

A quicker way for everyone’s input to be more succinct (barring the aforementioned measurements) would be to know the driver size x frequency range of each speaker - old and new. Are you aware of the crossover points for each speaker; and the driver sizes (not just 15” / 12” ) ?

Without knowing better, I’d be one to suspect you have a driver Surface Area discrepancy in the frequency ranges you find issue with. Very similar-looking, and allegedly similar-performing, speakers can have considerably different “visceral” impact because of where their similar-sized drivers are crossed.
I’m often amazed how little-mentioned the issue is - many others “here” must have been well aware of it long before I ever considered it.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Small speakers and subs can't do what large speakers do.

This thread is a bit of a de-ja-vu. -->

Dry bass

For some time now, I have a bass problem. The bass does not sound impactful or physical, it's just ... there. For context, I have 4x 12" Rythmik sub drivers built into two subwoofers, crossed over at 80Hz, with DSP provided by Acourate. If I turn the subs louder, it sounds unbalanced and there...

www.audiosciencereview.com