Size does matter for music?

[Deleted member 69358]

I bought into the whole "let the subwoofer handle the bass" recently and have been completely disappointed with music reproduction.

For movies it is great, but music is just horrible. Switching from 15" 3way speakers to 5.25" towers and a 12" sub sounds empty. Even with a pair of 12" subs the music sounds empty. It is like a portion of (mid) bass is just not there. I watched the spectrum on a phone app and identified the range in the 125-300hz range. I assume this is the directional bass spectrum and what is missing is the directional bass stereo effect the larger woofers provide in this range. Seems to mostly affect older heavy metal and old school rap.

How do I salvage this?

 

[Digby]

How do I salvage this?

You go back to the 15" 3 way speakers.

 

[Soniclife]

How do I salvage this?

Start with getting a measurement mic and measuring, there are big gains to be had.

 

[Trdat]

Nothing beats a 15 inch with a compression driver. I would suggest you go back to your 15 and add your dual subs into the system.

It could also be the dispersion characteristics of the speakers.

 

[Ciobi69]

measure...

 

[Purité Audio]

You go back to the 15" 3 way speakers.

With subs.
Keith

 

[DVDdoug]

If you have an AVR make sure your mass management is set-up correctly. Regular stereo bass my not be routed to the subs, and maybe you're only getting the "point one" LFE channel from movies. And, can you control the crossover frequency? The default is probably 80Hz which means your main speakers are handling everything down to 80Hz.

A pair of 15-inch woofers is about twice the cone area as a pair of 12's. And, there are other aspects to speaker design and optimization.

I watched the spectrum on a phone app and identified the range in the 125-300hz range.

It's not that useful without something to compare it to.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

You go back to the 15" 3 way speakers.

The 15"s are 25 years old and a bit beat up, I am surprised they held up this long. They are also not good for movies. The new Infinity Reference speakers are so much clearer for everything else outside that one range.

I have though about getting a sub box from partsexpress putting in a 15" woofer(not sub) and an external cross over, but then I am at the same cost as a pair of CV SL-15

 

[Deleted member 69358]

If you have an AVR make sure your mass management is set-up correctly. Regular stereo bass my not be routed to the subs, and maybe you're only getting the "point one" LFE channel from movies. And, can you control the crossover frequency? The default is probably 80Hz which means your main speakers are handling everything down to 80Hz.

A pair of 15-inch woofers is about twice the cone area as a pair of 12's. And, there are other aspects to speaker design and optimization.

It's not that useful without something to compare it to.

I compared to the 15"s in another room at the same db level, while not perfect science, I can easily see and hear that range is only bouncing up on the graph half as much.

Like
left - - - left

vs

left- right - left

I have literally tried everything from 80 - 150hz cross over, setting speakers to large and turning on double bass.

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

Seems to me it's related more to the specific equipment and not a general rule. I've always had better sound with subwoofers but I've never had speakers with 15" woofers.

 

[Ciobi69]

Id say measure and discover or its just talking

 

[Sancus]

Agree with the suggestions to measure, but 5" woofers are absurdly small. It takes like 3-4 of them just to match an 8". If you're sitting far enough away that 15" 3-ways made sense, it's very possible you just bought underpowered towers for your use case.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

Here are example songs.

You can hear the stereo separation in the (mid)bass, looking at the graph the peak at 125hz comes from the right speaker and the peak around 250hz from the left. I think most of the music from the 70s and 80s is mastered this way maybe because "boomy, too big to fit on a bookshelf" 12" Pioneer bookshelf speakers were so common.

- Kiss "I love it loud"

- Black Sabbath "Iron Man"

 

[egellings]

I bought into the whole "let the subwoofer handle the bass" recently and have been completely disappointed with music reproduction.

For movies it is great, but music is just horrible. Switching from 15" 3way speakers to 5.25" towers and a 12" sub sounds empty. Even with a pair of 12" subs the music sounds empty. It is like a portion of (mid) bass is just not there. I watched the spectrum on a phone app and identified the range in the 125-300hz range. I assume this is the directional bass spectrum and what is missing is the directional bass stereo effect the larger woofers provide in this range. Seems to mostly affect older heavy metal and old school rap.

How do I salvage this?

Maybe the use of EQ?

 

[Deleted member 69358]

Id say measure and discover or its just talking

I did measure and came to the conclusion that the (mid)bass that is missing is because the LFE channel is not in stereo, does not cover the full range I am looking at and the little woofers on the fronts just cannot deliver the (mid)bass punch I am looking for.

 

[Sancus]

I did measure and came to the conclusion that the (mid)bass that is missing is because the LFE channel is not in stereo, does not cover the full range I am looking at and the little woofers on the fronts just cannot deliver the (mid)bass punch I am looking for.

Subwoofers should also be bass managed and playing crossed over bass from the L/R. If they're only playing LFE the system is set up wrong.

That still won't help you with frequencies far above the crossover of course.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

Subwoofers should also be bass managed and playing crossed over bass from the L/R. If they're only playing LFE the system is set up wrong.

That still won't help you with frequencies far above the crossover of course.

This same speaker system has been on a Pioneer VSX-80, Onkyo TX-NR696, Onkyo TX-NR656 and now a Pioneer VSX-LX505. They all, except the VSX-LX505, seem to only have LFE output.

 

[Sancus]

This same speaker system has been on a Pioneer VSX-80, Onkyo TX-NR696, Onkyo TX-NR656 and now a Pioneer VSX-LX505. They all, except the VSX-LX505, seem to only have LFE output.

You'll have to check the manual but the VSX-LX505 has a crossover setting for each channel. If it's properly set, it will pass bass from those channels to the sub output as well as the LFE.

 

[MarkS]

Are your speakers are Infinity Reference 253?

They are reviewed by Amir here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../infinity-reference-253-review-speaker.17923/

Here is a comment by an owner later in the thread:

Bass performance is quite impressive and when I turn on my sub it's like alrighty then, this is the way lows are suppose to sound!

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-253-review-speaker.17923/page-9#post-1617393

Based on the measurements and that owner comment, I really think you have a room-mode and/or setup problem, not a fundamental problem with smaller drivers.

Have you compared your newer speakers with the old ones in the same room? It's not clear if you've done this.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

You'll have to check the manual but the VSX-LX505 has a crossover setting for each channel. If it's properly set, it will pass bass from those channels to the sub output as well as the LFE.

The Pioneers only have one global setting, My Onkyo's have it on a per channel. Problem is still sub is only in mono and the 250hz range still goes to 5.25 woofers.

Gonna try to eq the 150 - 350 range up a few decibels.