Creating bass weight and impact?

[Jimshoe]

I was recently at a live concert in a large venue and, as I often do in this situation, noticed the weight and impact of the bass notes. They hit with a physical energy you can feel and which makes live music so exciting. Note I'm not saying the notes are super low, just powerful

My home system Genelec 8361 fed via a MiniDSP Studio and is pretty flat down to around 30Hz or so and sounds fantastic. I add in a house curve (providing a lift in the bas) but the system has nowhere near the wallop and weight in the bass I hear at live events.

At the concert the PA system was large but, in proportion to the venue size, the size and number of drivers (I could see) is not hugely different to my speakers and my listening room.

My question then is what creates the hard (in a good way) visceral bass sound that you hear at concerts? Can it be created at home?

I measured the SPL at my seat (around 100 - 110 db) is is this what creates the bass impact? I had earplugs in BTW, I generally listen 80-90db at home (and often much less).

Doug

 

[Robbo99999]

I am certainly not a live venue expert, but I'd say the biggest difference is that the live concert SPL you were experiencing was a lot louder than your home setup overall. I think this is why you felt the bass from the concert venue. Perhaps it's also likely that the concert venue can hit deeper bass notes than your 30Hz that your home setup can achieve. Again we probably need some commentary from experts in the line of live concert audio to understand what the normal SPL and bass extension capabilities are of concert audio. Your concert experience I suppose is also affected by where you were in the audience in relation to any of the speakers, that might be useful information to include. Also give some details on what the concert was you went to - the venue and artist, as this will help understand the type of music and maybe even the venue's audio potential or setup.

 

[Sokel]

W371A SAM™ Woofer System - Genelec.com

An absolute revelation in low frequency performance. With the W371A, you can finally wave goodbye to the detrimental influences of your room on LF reproduction.

www.genelec.com

That's why this is made for,that's why is a woofer and NOT a subwoofer.
For a small-medium room can give this impact I believe,not the same as the mains big monitors of course.
It's not about high SPL in general.

 

[Sokel]

I am certainly not a live venue expert, but I'd say the biggest difference is that the live concert SPL you were experiencing was a lot louder than your home setup overall. I think this is why you felt the bass from the concert venue. Perhaps it's also likely that the concert venue can hit deeper bass notes than your 30Hz that your home setup can achieve. Again we probably need some commentary from experts in the line of live concert audio to understand what the normal SPL and bass extension capabilities are of concert audio. Your concert experience I suppose is also affected by where you were in the audience in relation to any of the speakers, that might be useful information to include. Also give some details on what the concert was you went to - the venue and artist, as this will help understand the type of music and maybe even the venue's audio potential or setup.

Live,amplified music in venues rarely goes lower than 40Hz,they use all kinds of hi pass filters down there,most of the pro woofers advice a hi pass down there.

 

[Robbo99999]

Live,amplified music in venues rarely goes lower than 40Hz,they use all kinds of low pass filters down there,most of the pro woofers advice a low pass down there.

Interesting, do you know why? Some genres of music benefit from below 40Hz content so surely live concerts of said music would want to reproduce content below 40Hz, I don't see why they wouldn't aim for below 40Hz in those cases? (I could imagine that high SPL in subbass is expensive to achieve for outdoor or large venues so that might be why?)

 

[Sokel]

Interesting, do you know why? Some genres of music benefit from below 40Hz content so surely live concerts of said music would want to reproduce content below 40Hz, I don't see why they wouldn't aim for below 40Hz in those cases? (I could imagine that high SPL in subbass is expensive to achieve for outdoor or large venues so that might be why?)

That,size and weight probably.Not that some of them don't go a lot lower.
Every time I have measured such stuff they are enormous at 100-250Hz but not so as we go lower.

 

[fpitas]

I don't see why they wouldn't aim for below 40Hz in those cases?

Because it would be beastly expensive in terms of power and drivers is the explanation I've heard. Most audiences are satisfied with 40Hz or so, and no one wants to spend money and haul even more equipment they don't have to.

 

[Sokel]

Because it would be beastly expensive in terms of power and drivers is the explanation I've heard. Most audiences are satisfied with 40Hz or so, and no one wants to spend money and haul even more equipment they don't have to.

Sometimes I think of sheer size of stuff.
A bass drum can be 70 cm (25-30"?) and it's excursion is quite big,what kind of drivers can replicate it?
3 18" maybe?Now we have to add on top of that the rest of the band (or orchestra to make it a little more dramatic) and to keep all that in check.

That's why I have given up a long time ago from expecting such feel.
Impact,ok with a generous midbass area,but the overall,no.

 

[Jimshoe]

I am certainly not a live venue expert, but I'd say the biggest difference is that the live concert SPL you were experiencing was a lot louder than your home setup overall. I think this is why you felt the bass from the concert venue. Perhaps it's also likely that the concert venue can hit deeper bass notes than your 30Hz that your home setup can achieve. Again we probably need some commentary from experts in the line of live concert audio to understand what the normal SPL and bass extension capabilities are of concert audio. Your concert experience I suppose is also affected by where you were in the audience in relation to any of the speakers, that might be useful information to include. Also give some details on what the concert was you went to - the venue and artist, as this will help understand the type of music and maybe even the venue's audio potential or setup.

Hi there. It was the Australian Pink Floyd at Usher Hall in Edinburgh:

I was seated to one side, quite high up, so not directly in line to the flying line-arrays used. I think there were also some subs along the front of the stage. Nothing crazy though, we are not talking Grateful Dead PA!

D

 

[Jimshoe]

Live,amplified music in venues rarely goes lower than 40Hz,they use all kinds of hi pass filters down there,most of the pro woofers advice a hi pass down there.

Yes, I would agree. I have a spectrum analyser on my phone that corroberates this, rolloff below 40Hz was significant

 

[blueone]

One thing to keep in mind... most live events are tuned by ear for the frequency balance the lead sound guy is looking for. If more bass impact is what they want, equalization is what they're using to enable it. Also, they are equalizing the outputs from the electronic instruments and microphones. Since everyone loves bass impact, and the vast majority of people can't generate it in their homes, popular music concerts tend to have it to give people a unique experience.

In a home experience you're probably depending on commercial recordings, and precious few of them have high level bass like concerts are carefully adjusted to have. And when you're equalizing a final recording you have much less control than the concert sound guys do who, for example, can pump up the output of the mike from the 24" bass drum individually. My analysis of commercial recordings, at least of the music I like, does not have a lot of bass below 60Hz, for whatever reasons. (I don't listen to rap music, which I'm told often has much deeper bass in the recordings than rock or jazz.) You can use a subharmonic synthesizer to try and generate some deep bass, but I used to own one and it found it annoying to make the effects sound natural. Our experiences are quite limited by commercial recordings.

 

[Jimshoe]

That's why I have given up a long time ago from expecting such feel.

I'm the same, but I am curious to understand why and what happens at live events to create this

 

[Purité Audio]

I wonder the same thing, that ‘chest thump’ isn’t that low what around 80Hz I wonder if ( as above) the level is just reduced for reproduction.
Or it could just be the amount of displacement that those line arrays have,
Keith

 

[Jimshoe]

I wonder the same thing, that ‘chest thump’ isn’t that low what around 80Hz I wonder if ( as above) the level is just reduced for reproduction.
Keith

Exactly! Its not super low frequency (usually far from it) but it is how it 'hits' in a physical visceral way I've never heard in domestic audio. My best guess is that it is an effect produced by high SPL - like a concussion wave. I'm curious though to hear what those more clued up than me think.

 

[Purité Audio]

I believe we feel that particular frequency because it causes the chest cavity to resonate, exactly the same thing at a Pixies concert at Alexandra Place, it was loud but you could still talk loudly to someone next to you and make yourself understood yet the thump was profound.
Keith

 

[Sokel]

There's a good test that says this amongst others:

Bass: the Physical Sensation of Sound

Ever wonder why you can feel bass? We take a look behind the science of bass waves and the tactile sensations that they cause. Our bass experiments were quite revealing but don't try them at home.

www.audioholics.com

 

[Purité Audio]

That explains so much with my athletic physique…
Keith

 

[Robbo99999]

That,size and weight probably.Not that some of them don't go a lot lower.
Every time I have measured such stuff they are enormous at 100-250Hz but not so as we go lower.

Because it would be beastly expensive in terms of power and drivers is the explanation I've heard. Most audiences are satisfied with 40Hz or so, and no one wants to spend money and haul even more equipment they don't have to.

Sometimes I think of sheer size of stuff.
A bass drum can be 70 cm (25-30"?) and it's excursion is quite big,what kind of drivers can replicate it?
3 18" maybe?Now we have to add on top of that the rest of the band (or orchestra to make it a little more dramatic) and to keep all that in check.

That's why I have given up a long time ago from expecting such feel.
Impact,ok with a generous midbass area,but the overall,no.

I tell you what... I'd like to hear from any audio professionals out there that are reading this that have set up concerts for genres of music where they know they are known for low subbass - it'd be good to get a proper industry inside view as well as explanation. So if any live audio professionals reading this then please add your input! You've got to think that there have been at least a few live venues where they've aimed for deep subbass at high SPL's, I'm sure it's possible, albeit maybe quite expensive!

 

[Willem]

I quite like the classical symphonic repertoire, and there is no doubt that it is hard to replicate at home. Levels tend to be much higher, dynamics are obvious, and low frequency response also extends quite deep. The technical challenges involved in mimicking that at home are serious. You need a dynamic recording, a system capable of deep bass reproduction, and at high levels. However, even when you have achieved all that, there is still the room acoustics. All that sound needs a large venue.
By chance I was listening to some Bach organ concertos at home yesterday. I am quite experienced with the real thing, and even though my quite powerful system did a good job, it was not the real thing. Room size 70 sq m; speakers high passed Quad 2805 plus three small to medium size subwoofers, Quad 2x140 watt power amp and a total of 1200 watt subwoofer amplification. I could see on the screen of my RME ADI-2 DAC that there was real output in the 20+ Hz range, and earlier measurements showed that the system can easily reproduce those frequencies.

 

[Jimshoe]

I tell you what... I'd like to hear from any audio professionals out there that are reading this that have set up concerts for genres of music where they know they are known for low subbass - it'd be good to get a proper industry inside view as well as explanation. So if any live audio professionals reading this then please add your input! You've got to think that there have been at least a few live venues where they've aimed for deep subbass at high SPL's, I'm sure it's possible, albeit maybe quite expensive!

Yes, I'd love to hear this too. What are the parameters and performance they are seeking in regard to particular frequencies?

It's the 'hardness' though of the impact that interests me.

Boomy, rounded, 'warm', 'lush' bass is anathema to me. I'm a fan of Berlin techno (anything Pink Floyd is to please the other half)!!