bench tests, not real tests..
no system, EVER, draws 140W per channel continuously for several minutes.. And if you have speakers that require this much power, you should NOT use such an AVR and instead use dedicated amplifiers.
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Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review
- Thread starter amirm
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no system, EVER, draws 140W per channel continuously for several minutes.. And if you have speakers that require this much power, you should NOT use such an AVR and instead use dedicated amplifiers.
I thought you were talking about "limp mode" you referred to in your post#918, not "power saving" mode (whatever that one is) that you now seemed to be pointing to??
Amir's finding about the so called "limp mode":
He said "As we see, it pulls back around the same time. This time the AVR was running pretty cool indicating this limiting is time based, no environment. You only have your maximum power for 35 seconds after which, power is limited until you power cycle the unit!"
He didn't use the "limp" term in the Pioneer review, but apparently, though evidently, coined this term in his subsequent review on the Onkyo TX-NR7100, in which he stated:
Anyway, @EWL5 knows more about this mode, and I don't actually own one of those PAC AVRs so I am bowing out after this post and let EWL5 answers any further questions on this funny mode.
Onkyo TX-NR7100 AVR Review
That is such a small audience. It offers no functionality for 99% of users. Rather see them scrap it and offer upgrade cards to put in there like seen on more high-end equipment. Besides, your RetroTink will give you MUCH better image quality than this AVR will ever give you. But like I said...
www.audiosciencereview.com
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You need only read the stories in this thread to see the limp mode in action!
Very similar adjectives and phrases used in common!
"testing with 4 Ohm load".. not user experience..
Users experience the voltage rail switching (relays click) in the power supply.. what I describe as a power saving mode. (because it has absolutely nothing to do with the collapse you experience when over-stressing the amplifier with a bench test.. the power saving mode reduces voltage and massively reduces waste of power, then reverts back to higher voltage when you turn up the volume.
That's what these "reports" confirm, too.
many of those reports are also ridiculous and biased (expectation bias).. some of them complaining that they need to "turn it up to -31dB" ?!?! What the fck?!
-31dB equals 54dB average SPL.. and 74dB peak SPL.. no wonder they find that weak..
And they didn't even bother to run calibration.. and they believe the marketing BS from Klipsch, about the sensitivity being 98dB/1W/1m.. lol
This thread should really filter dumb answers and fact check before simply parroting every little BS "report"..
You called out one user's feedback as "dumb". Fine, you remove that one and the rest are very similar in their feedback concerning their speaker's response!
Also, you are referencing "expectation bias" when most of the feedback are made w/o knowledge of Amir's bench tests, etc!
The smoking gun has been comments from owners who transitioned from a 2021 PAC AVR to the big brother version. They talk about a huge step change in sound on their low impedance speakers when going from say an RZ50 to an RZ70, for example. You'd be hard pressed to get these types of "step change" comments from someone who made the change from a 3800/4800 to a 6800, for example!
In the RZ70 owner's thread on AVS:
"I am really liking it. Like you, I had to return a TX-RZ50. Seems to be built well."
"Must not be too many owners of this receiver or they are just enjoying the unit. I auditioned a Sony 3000, and an Onkyo Z50. The Sony had the buzz that really annoyed me. The Onkyo 50 was better in my opinion. I did notice that when playing at louder volumes, it sounded strained with my Definitive speakers. I have heard that my speakers tend to dip down in impedance when pushed. The Onkyo 70 has enough reserve that it doesn't have that issue. I finally read enough about Dirac, and after making numerous mistakes, that I have a good calibration. I purchased an Umik-1 and the results sound better to me than the included puck mic. I am using the tight grouping pattern that I found on YouTube. It does appear to have the "bubble" of Atmos. I am going to also do the Dirac suggested wide pattern and follow their placements to see which I prefer.
Definitely, like the upgraded remote from the RZ-50 also."
You called out one user's feedback as "dumb". Fine, you remove that one and the rest are very similar in their feedback concerning their speaker's response!
I admire your patience. We are just trying to help, but for me, I still don't know what his points/questions are so it is hard to even try to help. Thought I understood one question for a moment, then I realized really didn't. Not going to waste my time, good luck!
I'd be fine w/letting it go if it's common knowledge that PAC wants to upsell you to an AVR that can do low impedance speakers better (i.e. RZ50 to RZ70 for example), something that a lot of other mass market manufacturers don't do! Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it's far from common knowledge!
His op was "you're talking about a protective "limp" mode, right? (because of heat and being driven beyond its rated specs - heat, impedance, power drawn, etc.)", post#918, that's when we thought we could help clarify/answer (there's the ? right there lol..).
Now it seems to turn into more about something else, like power saving mode, rail switching, bench test methodology etc., not really clear, and seems like just expressing opinions, so that's when I thought it's time to move on, for me anyway, ymmv.
getting "better" and "more powerful" from a much more expensive, more powerful amplifier..
And you don't consider there to be expectation bias involved?!
I have a 3000 dollar Yamaha Stereo Amplifier and my B&W 803 "dip down" below 3 Ohms.. I honestly never noticed any "straining" when playing music.. (I had the speakers hooked up via an Amp-Switch) They always sounded great and really "the same" with both amplifiers.
you're obviously overwhelmed here.. why do you even bother?
Do you even own this amplifier?
Many of you haven't even grasped the simple concept of the dual-voltage power supply that has been explained countless times before..
1. Some users reported that the AVR switches (with a relays clank) after roughly 25 minutes or so and then the power INPUT to the amplifier drops significantly.. that's what I call the "power saving mode", because it's the power supply switching to the lower voltage rail.
2. Then there's the protective mode that apparently limits output power once the amplifier has been stressed beyond its capabilities. Unfortunately, Pioneer decided to NOT shut off the device at that point. Instead, it limits power output in a "limp" mode that needs power cycling (according to Amir)
It's also a condition that ONLY ever occurs when someone stress-tests the amplifier with a bench test that has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with real-life testing.
3. The amplifier has NEVER been found to ender "protection mode", or never even reports so on the web interface.. it also NEVER switches on the fan inside.. which is weird and definitely reason for complaints!
I would really love for all those claims of "speakers sound strained" to be confirmed with actual measurements.. it's easy to measure the power draw into the AVR, no?!
Or measure the frequency response output by the speaker.. if the amplifier was limiting power due to low impedance dips, then those super low dips would actually "dip" in the graph, no?!
If they sound "strained" from the get-go, then that's NOT the "limp" mode coined by Amir.. that was, as you suggested, "time triggered".. after 35 or so seconds of full throttle power drawn (again, BEYOND the rated power limit)..
It also isn't the power saving mode that I described (after 25 minutes of low volume play) where the relays switches to a lower voltage rail.. Because THAT switches back when you turn up the volume.
So, what exactly are they describing?
Speakers that require more than the 100+ Watts this amplifier can provide?
Look at my post #926 again: I had quoted you where you already mentioned "expectation bias". It is only during my response to you that I mention the RZ50 to RZ70 comparison. For the record, I only added kkpro's contribution to that AVS thread after I posted the same comments here at ASR (they weren't there before today).
Unless there's some time travel involved, I ask again: what is this expectation bias you speak of? Are you saying nearly everyone who gave feedback is intimately familiar w/Amir's bench test?
1. The rail switching you're talking about cycles back and forth. The limp mode we're talking about doesn't. It basically stays in limp mode until the plug is pulled (or temps fall below 61C based on recent knowledge)! The rail switching sounds more like an ECO mode.
2. Feedback from owners is all I have. Not everyone can tell the difference when they've been limited so that's why this issue should only concern audiophiles! If we do nothing with our knowledge, what's the point of reading forums like ASR or AVS? Before I read Amir's bench test of the RZ50, I was deciding b/w that and the Denon 3800 for my next receiver. After the review, I didn't want any part of what was going on w/the PAC AVRs from 2021! If given a choice, I will always choose the AVR that never makes me say, "it depends"!
3. We are in a agreement that this is super weird. Class A/B amps typically run hot if they're being stressed! Perhaps it's already in limp mode when this happens?
You mention rated power limit but Pioneer doesn't advertise power rating for low impedance speakers from 20Hz to 20kHz (they only do it for 8 ohms per FTC)! This is the gamesmanship I was talking about and PAC can get away with it because lower ohm power ratings are rarely advertised! The FTC should really expand their mandate to include disclosure of power ratings for 6 and 4 ohm speakers (20Hz to 20kHz) as well!
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expectation bias is always present.
people buy an AVR at 700 bucks, down from a 1500 or even higher MSRP.. they expect something to be amiss..
people come from a much more expensive AVR.. they expect there to be a downgrade..
people upgrade to a more expensive AVR.. they NEED there to be an audible upgrade..
I don't understand why you keep up your crusade against these companies, based solely on hearsay and none of your own experience?!
We've seen a multitude of threads here where people complained about these AVRs (miniDSP vs 505, power cut, blahblah).. and in every single case, it turned out to be user error, not the AVR's fault, or simply misinterpretation of "data"..
So, forgive me if I take your collected anecdotal stuff with a block of salt!
People reporting the "limp" mode after connecting speakers that are NOT within the Amplifiers spec...
Yes, the Amplifier should flat out refuse to work (shut down) and inform the user that these speakers are not supported.. it "limping" on is bad business practice..
But you cannot blame the amplifier for being unable to drive speakers that it wasn't designed to drive.
I say again, PAC (along w/nearly everyone else in the industry) doesn't advertise low impedance performance. How would you know what it was "designed" for? Are you an insider?
they don't advertise it because they aren't intended to be used with ultra-low impedance speakers?!
They provide a 6 Ohm rating in Europe, 230W, 1ch driven, 10% THD...
Also, here's the manual:
doesn't support speakers with less than 4 ohms impedance.
And, once again, the tests conducted were NOT industry standard tests.. They just fried the system with continuous load.. No movie (the purpose an AVR was designed for) EVER in the history of movies has EVER had maximum load for prolonged times...
85dB is reference level.. that's a comfortable 5 Watts on my speakers.. (3m seating distance, 86dB sensitivity)
50 Watts gets me 96dB SPL, which is about as much as I would ever need (-10dB from reference)
But that's PEAKS, not average, not continuous..
"They provide a 6 Ohm rating in Europe, 230W, 1ch driven, 10% THD..." <---- this has never helped anyone in the history of audio so I'm not sure why you mentioned this!
"This unit supports speakers with 4 ohm to 16 ohm impedance." [from the manual] <---- "supports" is quite different from "rated". Gives no meaningful information on an AVR's performance.
"doesn't support speakers with less than 4 ohms impedance." <---- Correct. The only problem is that some 4 ohm nominal speakers easily dip into the 2-3 ohm range for certain frequencies! This is when owners give feedback like:
- The sound is awesome when it works, but I also would randomly experience a dull lifeless sound
- I did notice that when playing at louder volumes, it sounded strained with my Definitive speakers
- Playing music with higher volume levels the music became more and more less dynamic the higher the volume plus the AVR seemed to reduce the volume by itself. It was not possible to break through a certain loudness level even when pushed the AVRs volume up to 0 dB.
- with the AVR running 5 speakers on its own, the sound was "confused" - lacked clarity - the AVR sounded like it was straining.
ivo.f.doma
Active Member
Did you take measurements on the RZ70 even after the last FW update? Because some claim that DLBC is not working properly now, it applies measurements from the L channel to the R channel and so on +1.
he doesn't own any of these devices.. he's just on a hate campaign against them.. I'm surprised he wasn't hit by a defamation lawsuit by the makers with all the energy he invests into destroying their reputation.
Again, all he does is share anecdotal "proof" about a product not functioning properly.. yet, no review has ever addressed that.
(I don't trust these reports one tiny bit.. Too many gullible fools incapable of operating such a device or ignoring their expectation bias.)
And Amir's is NOT a real review! He didn't even bother to test the damn device with speakers hooked up.. He could've tested the sound since he was so convinced that it didn't really work..
Yet, he refused to do that. He measured the amplifier at +2dB on the volume, which makes absolutely no sense, since nobody would EVER over-drive it. Even 0dB is insane in a regular sized room. (According to THX engineers, -6dB produces THX cinema reference levels in a medium sized home theatre)
He measured 144 Watts (well above the 120W rating) and let that RIP for 35 seconds... There is ZERO real-world applicability of this.. it's simply idiotic to test in such a way!
It's time to stop this mindless crusade, or get your shit together, procure that AVR, and TEST it yourself! Not on a test bench, but by actually testing it the way it was intended to be used!
My understanding is if you use Dirac 3.10 on the RZ70, then DLBM/DLBC operates normally even under the latest Nov firmware. However, if you use a Dirac version newer than 3.10, then DLBM/DLBC will behave the same as the RZ50!
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"I'm surprised he wasn't hit by a defamation lawsuit by the makers with all the energy he invests into destroying their reputation." <---- Lawsuit against actual owner feedback? Good luck! I have no interest in destroying any company's reputation (just make a better product)!
"And Amir's is NOT a real review! He didn't even bother to test the damn device with speakers hooked up.. He could've tested the sound since he was so convinced that it didn't really work.." <---- If you don't like Amir's review, what are you doing on Audio Science Review? You clearly don't appreciate the SCIENCE part of this forum but there are plenty of echo chambers out there that may fit your needs!
"It's time to stop this mindless crusade, or get your shit together, procure that AVR, and TEST it yourself! Not on a test bench, but by actually testing it the way it was intended to be used!" <---- There's no point. Expectation bias would just get in the way!
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