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Genelec 5.2.4 HT/Music Setup

abdo123

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Have I said RT60 to change? Re-read what I said please. Reverb time is related to but not RT60. You may also want to read my credentials.

yes let me re-read.
If the volume is high your reverb times will be longer.

No the reverb will not last longer in the room, it will only be louder since the direct sound is louder but that should not be perceptually different.
 

sarumbear

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yes let me re-read.


No the reverb will not last longer in the room, it will only be louder since the direct sound is louder but that should not be perceptually different.
I do not like to argue with people who argue for the sake of argument. Have a good day and a happy new year.
 

abdo123

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I do not like to argue with people who argue for the sake of argument.
This is not what you think it is, It's honestly frustrating how everytime the two of us engage in a discussion you immediately take it personally and mention 'your credentials'.

If you don't want your comments to be criticized then don't participate in a forum. This is not about you.
 

sarumbear

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This is not what you think it is, It's honestly frustrating how everytime the two of us engage in a discussion you immediately take it personally and mention 'your credentials'.

If you don't want your comments to be criticized then don't participate in a forum. This is not about you.
It is actually about me. I am happy to be criticised. I’m educated enough to know that I do not everything. However, I find it difficult to discuss with someone who I think has the basics confused, but I am unable to explain why and how. That’s why I leave the discussion. There’s nothing personal otherwise. How can it be? I never met you nor communicated directly.
 
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Sancus

Sancus

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Very few traps work up to 300Hz. Absorbers mostly work above 1000Hz. You will risk creating an odd sounding room. You are better of with a live room. If you listen at low volume you should be OK.
This contradicts what I've read pretty thoroughly, so what leads you to that belief? My understanding is it's mainly a matter of thickness, Toole recommends 2"-3" for reflection points and 4-6" for lower frequencies. All Rockwool core stuff of course. There is no fundamental difference between traps and absorbers other than thickness generally speaking. Unless you are referring specifically to membrane traps or Helmholtz resonators but I don't have any need for those.

Additionally, one side of the room is open to a wide space. So putting absorbers on the other side along the fireplace should, if anything, even things up in terms of reflections.
 
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Sancus

Sancus

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Did you buy the Genelecs from a Canadian dealer?
Yeah, they're all from Studio Economik who are great. I paid about $4K CAD each for the 8351Bs, and I think 3k for the 8341As. That was before all the price increases and such, so I'm glad I bought when I did.
 

sarumbear

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This contradicts what I've read pretty thoroughly, so what leads you to that belief? My understanding is it's mainly a matter of thickness, Toole recommends 2"-3" for reflection points and 4-6" for lower frequencies. All Rockwool core stuff of course. There is no fundamental difference between traps and absorbers other than thickness generally speaking. Unless you are referring specifically to membrane traps or Helmholtz resonators but I don't have any need for those.

Additionally, one side of the room is open to a wide space. So putting absorbers on the other side along the fireplace should, if anything, even things up in terms of reflections.
May I then suggest you follow your resources.
 
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Sancus

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May I then suggest you follow your resources.
Yep, that is the plan as much as physically possible.I do appreciate the feedback though.

Honestly room treatment is very cheap compared to the cost of this system so I will be able to experiment and change things if I don't like how it sounds without too much worry. It is mainly a matter of finding the time, as I'm pretty busy with work and other commitments outside of holidays.

I'll post again once I've tried room treatments and what results (or lack thereof) I ended up with.
 

Descartes

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People have seemed interested in multi-channel Genelec setups for a while now, so I figured I would make one post with photos and other information about my own setup, rather than pointing people to posts spread over a dozen+ threads.

ndMNMWX.png


qL885Zo.jpg


Gear
L/C/R are Genelec 8351Bs.
LS/RS are Genelec 8341As.
4 x Heights are Neumann KH80.
2 x Subwoofers are Arendal 1723 2S.

Stands are: K&M 26706 Base Plate + 24623 Rod (heights/surrounds) + 26736 Rod (L/R). The 19780 adapter is used for all speakers, but the 19610 could also be used. The 8351Bs are pretty near the weight limit for that adapter, so they tend to sag a bit, but flipping the adapters upside down(so the angle adjustment can only tilt upwards) fixed that. The friction clamp on the 19780 will not hold an 8351B(14.3kg) but will hold an 8341A(9.8kg). If the speaker is at the minimum height, the clamp does not need to support the weight because it will rest on the lower tube section.

Electronics: Denon X4500H + Nvidia Shield TV Pro.

TV: LG 65" C9 OLED.

For anyone else who wants to do this, I suggest taking care with selecting your distance rods, since the 19780 adapter clamps on the upper 35mm section of the rod, but NOT on the lower 42mm one. So there is a minimum height you can use that depends on the particular rod.

FAQ
1. Why not use digital outputs for the Genelecs?

So far it's not really practical if you want an AVP that can decode Atmos and upmix w/Auro3D, which I do. The cheapest option is the JBL SDP-55($6K) with its Dante outputs, but that has some kind of bug that makes a ticking sound sometimes. Other options would be Storm/Trinnov processors(too $$$ for me) with digital output options, or modifying your own AVR to have digital outputs. I am very skeptical there is any audible improvement except maybe a small noise floor reduction, so it's not a major concern. I would like to use Dante just to clean up the cabling situation, though.

2. Why not use Genelec subwoofers? Don't they integrate better?

Genelec subwoofers are really expensive relative to the SPL they output. And unfortunately, GLM does not have a particularly sophisticated subwoofer EQ system for home listening. This post elaborates. But the short version is that GLM's subwoofer EQ strategy is not as sophisticated as Multi-Sub Optimizer or Dirac Bass Control. All that said, Genelec subwoofers are very convenient especially for stereo setups and I wouldn't hesitate to buy them if you don't want to worry about manual sub integration.

3. Do you use GLM or Audyssey?

I use both. I run GLM first, and then Audyssey afterwards. This minimizes the corrections Audyssey needs to perform. Doing it the other way around would also work, but it introduces the problem that GLM might create a level or EQ mismatch in the subwoofer crossover area, since it cannot measure the subwoofers. If I had a full Genelec system with Genelec subwoofers, I would probably only use GLM.

4. Measurements?

I'll add more detail later, but for now here is a single point full-range measurement and a spectrogram. This is after GLM+Audyssey correction, and with Multi-Sub Optimizer. Since this is a single point measurement, the high frequency information is not super accurate.

index.php


index.php


5. Why no room treatment?

Mostly haven't gotten around to it. The frequency response is pretty good as-is, honestly. I would like to reduce the RT60 times somewhat overall but that's about it. I am planning to add a little room treatment eventually, but I need to make sure I purchase things that will look reasonably decent in the room and match the furniture etc, so that is a concern, and may require a custom order. That complicates things since I need to figure out where I want treatment before I order it.

6. Why not ported subs/Why dual opposed subs?

They're mostly too large for my space. While there are similar sized ported subs to the Arendals that offer a bit more low end output, they tend to have port tunings above/close to 20hz, and I don't love the increased group delay caused by that. It's very unclear if it's audible, to be honest, but I'd rather not worry about it. Also, a nice side benefit of dual opposed woofer subs is that they don't physically vibrate or move at all. So you can reasonably use them as end tables, as I am doing on the right side of the sofa, and you don't have to worry about anything rattling or falling off of them.

7. How did you use Multi-Sub Optimizer with this setup?

Good question. The TLDR; is that you can use anything that allows PEQs for each subwoofer channels, and in this case, the subwoofers themselves have 7 PEQ slots for each one. There is some information in this post here. I am planning to write a mini-tutorial on this later.

8. How are your heights configured?

They are set as "Front" and "Rear" heights. This is fairly important, as "Surround Heights" will NOT be used for Atmos output. Yes, this is a little out of spec because they're not really "Rear" heights, but it sounds fine. I am aware some people like to be super picky about using tops and heights separately for Atmos and Auro3D, but that just isn't practical in a space like this. Honestly, I think heights work OK for Atmos, as long as the angle between the listener and the speaker is relatively steep. At the end of the day, you're always better off with suboptimally positioned height/tops than none.

9. Why Neumann KH80s for heights and not Genelec 8331As or 8030C etc/Why don't the Neumanns match?

The Neumanns were my first purchases, and the black ones were on sale. I bought them before I'd even decided to start using Genelecs. I likely will replace them eventually with matching white Genelecs(but 8331As are insanely expensive for height use...) but it's a low priority. Probably won't happen until I move and am forced to tear down the whole system anyways. There are no audible issues with them as they are, heights just aren't that important.

10. Why not Genelec 8361As for L/C/R?

I considered them, but I think they're a bit too large and they're also heavier than I wanted to deal with. They would not be able to be mounted using the adapters and stands I've chosen, for example. This system has plenty of output for a ~2.5m listening distance, especially since I upmix everything with Auro3D so the center helps even stereo material. Of course I want W371As one day, but probably not in this room...

11. Why no W371As?

I accept donations. :)
Very nice, so I assume you use XLR to RCA cables!
 
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Sancus

Sancus

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Very nice, so I assume you use XLR to RCA cables!

Yeah, I use short RCA -> XLR and then regular XLR the rest of the way. The hard RCA-> XLR adapters are bad because they are too thick to fit side by side in an AVR's closely spaced plugs. Also this way if I ever upgrade to an AVR/AVP with XLR outs, which is possible, it will be simple to just drop in without changing the cable runs.
 

Ron Texas

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Is this the worst space for home theater I've seen? All white, and surrounded by windows. I know OLED can handle it better than most types of displays, but wow. Most certainly wouldn't work for anyone's projector display.

OTOH, for the sound part, you've done an excellent job of working with the space I think. :)
He doesn't have a projector. It's dark at night which is probably when he watches movies. Besides, you are trashing the OP's home. That's not nice. Looks like a beautiful flat with many views to me.
 

Blumlein 88

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He doesn't have a projector. It's dark at night which is probably when he watches movies. Besides, you are trashing the OP's home. That's not nice. Looks like a beautiful flat with many views to me.
Good Gawd man, I'm an audiophile. I'm not going to look out the window while listening. ;)

And just to be clear I didn't trash his home. It looks great. Just not for video usage.
 

Blumlein 88

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This is not what you think it is, It's honestly frustrating how everytime the two of us engage in a discussion you immediately take it personally and mention 'your credentials'.

If you don't want your comments to be criticized then don't participate in a forum. This is not about you.
Think about reverb for a minute, not RT60. Put out a sound at 100 db, and as it is reflected to and fro some absorption occurs until there is nothing left. Put out 50 db sound, and it will be absorbed until there is nothing left in a shorter period of time.

Or think of how long it takes for absorption from 100 db to 50 db. That is then going to be absorbed over more time from 50 db to 0 db. Obviously if you start at only 50 db the sound reverberating is gone quicker with lower initial volume.
 

ernestcarl

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I’ve always liked this kind of modular setup. The room and speakers are also very nice. But I think the inherent “liveness” level of the room and high white contrast is not something I’d want from a dedicated video home-theater myself.

For music only, it probably would not bother me at all. Anyway, sharing the details of your setup is very much appreciated.
 
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Sancus

Sancus

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I’ve always liked this kind of modular setup. The room and speakers are also very nice. But I think the inherent “liveness” level of the room and high white contrast is not something I’d want from a dedicated video home-theater myself.

For music only, it probably would not bother me at all. Anyway, sharing the details of your setup is very much appreciated.
I expected some criticism about that. To be clear, this isn't meant to be a very serious home theatre. I went white because it looks better to me than black, knowing perfectly well it would be a bit worse for light control. The place is dark enough at night.

My priority is definitely more towards the music side but I don't have space for two setups. So hybrid was necessary. And anyway, there aren't any better rooms for HT.
 

abdo123

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Think about reverb for a minute, not RT60. Put out a sound at 100 db, and as it is reflected to and fro some absorption occurs until there is nothing left. Put out 50 db sound, and it will be absorbed until there is nothing left in a shorter period of time.

Or think of how long it takes for absorption from 100 db to 50 db. That is then going to be absorbed over more time from 50 db to 0 db. Obviously if you start at only 50 db the sound reverberating is gone quicker with lower initial volume.
The comments i replied to heavily insinuated that room acoustics change as the source volume changes and that low volumes ‘don’t excite the room’. Do you agree with them?

Personally i have never read that the phenomenon you described is relevant in small room acoustics and i haven’t experienced it myself in small rooms either.

This might be relevant for a huge cathedral with 6 or 7 seconds reverb time playing a single tone on an Organ. Not for a small room with rock music playing in my opinion.
 

Blumlein 88

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The comments i replied to heavily insinuated that room acoustics change as the source volume changes and that low volumes ‘don’t excite the room’. Do you agree with them?

Personally i have never read that the phenomenon you described is relevant in small room acoustics and i haven’t experienced it myself in small rooms either.

This might be relevant for a huge cathedral with 6 or 7 seconds reverb time playing a single tone on an Organ. Not for a small room with rock music playing in my opinion.
Obviously low volume excites the room at lower levels. I don't recall reading anything indicating they don't excite the room. Can you quote a specific post or something similar?
 

abdo123

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Obviously low volume excites the room at lower levels. I don't recall reading anything indicating they don't excite the room. Can you quote a specific post or something similar?
I'm not going to quote specific posts, the thread is very short and you're free to scroll up directly to these comments.

My current understanding is that the ratio of direct sound and the reverberent sound level is not determined by the loudness of the direct sound, but rather by the distance to the direct sound, the room's absorption factor and surface area, and the directivity of the speaker.

Critical.png


The equation for the critical distance (DC) for example is the following:

critical-distance-eq1.png


where R is the room constant, and Q is the directivity factor of the loudspeaker.

the equation for the room constant is the following:

critical-distance-eq2.png


where S is the room surface area (m2), and A is the mean absorption coefficient of the room surfaces. I can't find an equation where the ratio of direct sound to reverberation is influenced by the level of the direct sound. Feel free to suggest other sources that suggest otherwise.
 

Blumlein 88

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Changing goalposts by mixing amounts with ratios?
 
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