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Genelec 5.2.4 HT/Music Setup

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Sancus

Sancus

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Just wondering how much tweaking you do on Audyssey once GLM has run? trying this myself for the first time, it's a bit overwhelming :)
Lol it's pretty annoying, actually. I don't have the $200 PC app since I'm planning to upgrade to an AVP with Dirac Bass Control in a year or two. So, I have to draw my curves in the phone app. You can use ratbudyssey or like, an Android emulator apparently, but meh.

One thing to note is that changing the subwoofer curve in the app won't actually boost subwoofer levels, it will just compress everything down to fit your curve. So, if you are trying to boost bass a bit from the standard Audyssey(which I do usually want +3dB extra), you need to raise the sub level trim directly. I find it's actually quite annoying to get this tweaked right without using REW to measure so you can actually see where your speaker and sub curves are aligning.

Additionally, you can use the frequency restriction in the app to avoid correction above a certain frequency, but there are some gotchas where it will modify the high frequencies anyways like for example if you're using Dynamic EQ. And doing this can also create a level matching problem if you're not careful. You need to make sure the point where correction ends is the same level as the uncorrected range.

And obviously, turn midrange compensation off, there's no point to it with Genelecs. It's only useful for speaker designs that have a natural midrange/tweeter crossover dip built in. This AVSForum thread can be *useful* but I wouldn't take everything it says as gospel or anything. It's incredibly long, I've never read the whole thing, just sections that I thought were relevant.

Also, you can check in the Audyssey setup in the AVR and look at the graphic equalizers to see what corrections it's actually making, if you want to minimize those and try to get it close to the GLM curve. Yes, it's annoying, like everything else I've written here. Overall I don't love Audyssey and find that it has poor UI design. But the Denons are still the best value AVPs for now. At least until somebody makes DLBC available for $2000 or less.

Since I basically stream everything over Netflix, I'm wondering if there's a PC and software based solution. It would have to apply the eq somehow to the bitstream, b/c HDMI 2.0 is limited to transmitting 8 channels with PCM, but it can transmit a full ATMOS bitstream with Metadata.
To apply EQ to the bitstream it would need to be decoded, EQed, and then re-encoded. An Atmos bitstream is all object data, so there's no way to EQ it without being able to decode it.

I'm not aware of ANY way to do this on PC, however, Macs very recently gained the ability to decode Atmos from official Apple content sources only, and you can configure an Atmos speaker layout with a Mac directly with no AVR. However, my understanding is this uses Apple's spatial audio decoder, NOT the Dolby one, so results may be somewhat different, I don't really know. A/B test it and make a post ;)

P.S. I'm jealous of your Realizer, I really want one, but can't justify the cost really lol. Also, I read they're rather difficult to order/rarely available?

Wood floor, blinds, irregular rom shape. That is enough for me.

Thanks for your help in keeping the thread on page 1 ;) For those following along, wood floors are not a real problem, that's a misconception. They just mean your floor isn't a source of absorption so you might want more somewhere else. Tons of recording studios and mixing rooms have hard flooring.
 
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tifune

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Lol it's pretty annoying, actually. I don't have the $200 PC app since I'm planning to upgrade to an AVP with Dirac Bass Control in a year or two. So, I have to draw my curves in the phone app. You can use ratbudyssey or like, an Android emulator apparently, but meh.

One thing to note is that changing the subwoofer curve in the app won't actually boost subwoofer levels, it will just compress everything down to fit your curve. So, if you are trying to boost bass a bit from the standard Audyssey(which I do usually want +3dB extra), you need to raise the sub level trim directly. I find it's actually quite annoying to get this tweaked right without using REW to measure so you can actually see where your speaker and sub curves are aligning.

Additionally, you can use the frequency restriction in the app to avoid correction above a certain frequency, but there are some gotchas where it will modify the high frequencies anyways like for example if you're using Dynamic EQ. And doing this can also create a level matching problem if you're not careful. You need to make sure the point where correction ends is the same level as the uncorrected range.

And obviously, turn midrange compensation off, there's no point to it with Genelecs. It's only useful for speaker designs that have a natural midrange/tweeter crossover dip built in. This AVSForum thread can be *useful* but I wouldn't take everything it says as gospel or anything. It's incredibly long, I've never read the whole thing, just sections that I thought were relevant.

Also, you can check in the Audyssey setup in the AVR and look at the graphic equalizers to see what corrections it's actually making, if you want to minimize those and try to get it close to the GLM curve. Yes, it's annoying, like everything else I've written here. Overall I don't love Audyssey and find that it has poor UI design. But the Denons are still the best value AVPs for now. At least until somebody makes DLBC available for $2000 or less.

Great info, thank you! I recently stumbled on this fellow:


From what it seems, he basically cleaned up Ratbudyssey a bit. Disclaimer: I've never used Ratbudyssey so this is conjecture. I took one look at it and meme-aintnobodygottimeforthat.gif . For $10, if Roland's tool saves me 20 minutes of screaming at Audyssey android app, it's worth it. You can copy/paste the curves using Excel rather than trying to draw them, one by one, on your phone.

The tool doesn't officially support "custom curves," but does include templates for Toole's 'regular' -3dB, Toole's HT, and B&K (not familiar with this one). He's a big proponent of Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume which maybe isn't relevant to my 2ch upmix use case, I haven't totally decided yet. Dynamic Volume I usually leave off w/ the Genelecs, although it's really helpful for movies in my HT to keep me from fertilizing my underwear when there's an explosion during an unassuming dialogue scene. Dynamic EQ offset is recommended -10dB for "modern music" which I guess is most of my tastes so I leave it as such for now even though I don't fully understand what it's doing.

I'm glad you mentioned the subwoofer boost - I tend to turn the bass up a little more than the typical harman curve, so I'll look out for it.

Have you ever directly compared your 51's with your 41's in front L/R setup? Much like my irrational affinity for excellent vertical dispersion, I also have a strong mental bias toward a 60Hz crossover on my front L/R. All my systems sound better this way, especially for music, and so far I can't quite get the 41's across that line. The typical "full octave" crossover advice puts them at ~70Hz, which isn't an option on denon's :( . Probably if I was better with bass mgmt, it would be a non-issue, but I'm really debating if I want to exchange my 41's for the 51's.
 
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Sancus

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Great info, thank you! I recently stumbled on this fellow:


From what it seems, he basically cleaned up Ratbudyssey a bit. Disclaimer: I've never used Ratbudyssey so this is conjecture. I took one look at it and meme-aintnobodygottimeforthat.gif . For $10, if Roland's tool saves me 20 minutes of screaming at Audyssey android app, it's worth it. You can copy/paste the curves using Excel rather than trying to draw them, one by one, on your phone.

The tool doesn't officially support "custom curves," but does include templates for Toole's 'regular' -3dB, Toole's HT, and B&K (not familiar with this one). He's a big proponent of Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume which maybe isn't relevant to my 2ch upmix use case, I haven't totally decided yet. Dynamic Volume I usually leave off w/ the Genelecs, although it's really helpful for movies in my HT to keep me from fertilizing my underwear when there's an explosion during an unassuming dialogue scene. Dynamic EQ offset is recommended -10dB for "modern music" which I guess is most of my tastes so I leave it as such for now even though I don't fully understand what it's doing.

Pretty interesting, I might check it out. And yeah, ratbudyssey is cool but definitely a mess.

Really the only thing I hoped to get out of DLBC was easier configuration,enabling me to change things more often if I feel like, and possibly slightly better optimized crossovers. But it's a low priority. Audyssey sucks to set up but once you have it figured out I have no complaints about the sound.

I'm glad you mentioned the subwoofer boost - I tend to turn the bass up a little more than the typical harman curve, so I'll look out for it.

Have you ever directly compared your 51's with your 41's in front L/R setup? Much like my irrational affinity for excellent vertical dispersion, I also have a strong mental bias toward a 60Hz crossover on my front L/R. All my systems sound better this way, especially for music, and so far I can't quite get the 41's across that line. The typical "full octave" crossover advice puts them at ~70Hz, which isn't an option on denon's :( . Probably if I was better with bass mgmt, it would be a non-issue, but I'm really debating if I want to exchange my 41's for the 51's.

No, I haven't. Sorry! I stick to a 100hz crossover for all of my Genelecs since that's the frequency where their output capability tends to drop sharply. I'm very happy with the Audyssey+MSO solution overall at that crossover.

If you want to use a lower crossover then yeah you do probably want the 51s, though.
 

Tangband

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People have seemed interested in multi-channel Genelec setups for a while now, so I figured I would make one post with photos and other information about my own setup, rather than pointing people to posts spread over a dozen+ threads.

ndMNMWX.png


qL885Zo.jpg


Gear
L/C/R are Genelec 8351Bs.
LS/RS are Genelec 8341As.
4 x Heights are Neumann KH80.
2 x Subwoofers are Arendal 1723 2S.

Stands are: K&M 26706 Base Plate + 24623 Rod (heights/surrounds) + 26736 Rod (L/R). The 19780 adapter is used for all speakers, but the 19610 could also be used. The 8351Bs are pretty near the weight limit for that adapter, so they tend to sag a bit, but flipping the adapters upside down(so the angle adjustment can only tilt upwards) fixed that. The friction clamp on the 19780 will not hold an 8351B(14.3kg) but will hold an 8341A(9.8kg). If the speaker is at the minimum height, the clamp does not need to support the weight because it will rest on the lower tube section.

Electronics: Denon X4500H + Nvidia Shield TV Pro.

TV: LG 65" C9 OLED.

For anyone else who wants to do this, I suggest taking care with selecting your distance rods, since the 19780 adapter clamps on the upper 35mm section of the rod, but NOT on the lower 42mm one. So there is a minimum height you can use that depends on the particular rod.

FAQ
1. Why not use digital outputs for the Genelecs?

So far it's not really practical if you want an AVP that can decode Atmos and upmix w/Auro3D, which I do. The cheapest option is the JBL SDP-55($6K) with its Dante outputs, but that has some kind of bug that makes a ticking sound sometimes. Other options would be Storm/Trinnov processors(too $$$ for me) with digital output options, or modifying your own AVR to have digital outputs. I am very skeptical there is any audible improvement except maybe a small noise floor reduction, so it's not a major concern. I would like to use Dante just to clean up the cabling situation, though.

2. Why not use Genelec subwoofers? Don't they integrate better?

Genelec subwoofers are really expensive relative to the SPL they output. And unfortunately, GLM does not have a particularly sophisticated subwoofer EQ system for home listening. This post elaborates. But the short version is that GLM's subwoofer EQ strategy is not as sophisticated as Multi-Sub Optimizer or Dirac Bass Control. All that said, Genelec subwoofers are very convenient especially for stereo setups and I wouldn't hesitate to buy them if you don't want to worry about manual sub integration.

3. Do you use GLM or Audyssey?

I use both. I run GLM first, and then Audyssey afterwards. This minimizes the corrections Audyssey needs to perform. Doing it the other way around would also work, but it introduces the problem that GLM might create a level or EQ mismatch in the subwoofer crossover area, since it cannot measure the subwoofers. If I had a full Genelec system with Genelec subwoofers, I would probably only use GLM.

4. Measurements?

I'll add more detail later, but for now here is a single point full-range measurement and a spectrogram. This is after GLM+Audyssey correction, and with Multi-Sub Optimizer. Since this is a single point measurement, the high frequency information is not super accurate.

index.php


index.php


5. Why no room treatment?

Mostly haven't gotten around to it. The frequency response is pretty good as-is, honestly. I would like to reduce the RT60 times somewhat overall but that's about it. I am planning to add a little room treatment eventually, but I need to make sure I purchase things that will look reasonably decent in the room and match the furniture etc, so that is a concern, and may require a custom order. That complicates things since I need to figure out where I want treatment before I order it.

6. Why not ported subs/Why dual opposed subs?

They're mostly too large for my space. While there are similar sized ported subs to the Arendals that offer a bit more low end output, they tend to have port tunings above/close to 20hz, and I don't love the increased group delay caused by that. It's very unclear if it's audible, to be honest, but I'd rather not worry about it. Also, a nice side benefit of dual opposed woofer subs is that they don't physically vibrate or move at all. So you can reasonably use them as end tables, as I am doing on the right side of the sofa, and you don't have to worry about anything rattling or falling off of them.

7. How did you use Multi-Sub Optimizer with this setup?

Good question. The TLDR; is that you can use anything that allows PEQs for each subwoofer channels, and in this case, the subwoofers themselves have 7 PEQ slots for each one. There is some information in this post here. I am planning to write a mini-tutorial on this later.

8. How are your heights configured?

They are set as "Front" and "Rear" heights. This is fairly important, as "Surround Heights" will NOT be used for Atmos output. Yes, this is a little out of spec because they're not really "Rear" heights, but it sounds fine. I am aware some people like to be super picky about using tops and heights separately for Atmos and Auro3D, but that just isn't practical in a space like this. Honestly, I think heights work OK for Atmos, as long as the angle between the listener and the speaker is relatively steep. At the end of the day, you're always better off with suboptimally positioned height/tops than none.

9. Why Neumann KH80s for heights and not Genelec 8331As or 8030C etc/Why don't the Neumanns match?

The Neumanns were my first purchases, and the black ones were on sale. I bought them before I'd even decided to start using Genelecs. I likely will replace them eventually with matching white Genelecs(but 8331As are insanely expensive for height use...) but it's a low priority. Probably won't happen until I move and am forced to tear down the whole system anyways. There are no audible issues with them as they are, heights just aren't that important.

10. Why not Genelec 8361As for L/C/R?

I considered them, but I think they're a bit too large and they're also heavier than I wanted to deal with. They would not be able to be mounted using the adapters and stands I've chosen, for example. This system has plenty of output for a ~2.5m listening distance, especially since I upmix everything with Auro3D so the center helps even stereo material. Of course I want W371As one day, but probably not in this room...

11. Why no W371As?

I accept donations. :)
Really nice system you have :)
One thing - I would be really surprised if the Genelec 7360 subwoofer with digital crossover and GLM wouldnt be a big sound uppgrade from the Arendal . Perfect integration is the most important thing in subwoofer use.
 

tifune

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3. Do you use GLM or Audyssey?

I use both. I run GLM first, and then Audyssey afterwards. This minimizes the corrections Audyssey needs to perform. Doing it the other way around would also work, but it introduces the problem that GLM might create a level or EQ mismatch in the subwoofer crossover area, since it cannot measure the subwoofers. If I had a full Genelec system with Genelec subwoofers, I would probably only use GLM.

Time permitting, can you post screenshots of your Audyssey config? Like yourself I have some KH's I'm trying to integrate and I'm sort of confused on the best approach. Obviously "best" is contextual, but a starting point from someone who's gotten good results would be great. My guess is: GLM corrects as much as possible, then Audyssey tunes all to the same curve, yeah?

Also, you mention if you had all Genelec you'd just use GLM. When dealing with that in an AVR scenario, would you use the AVR's LFE out at all or just run all channels set to Large (full range) attached the sub input and let GLM handle bass mgmt? My use case is strictly music so I think that's the simplest approach; with discreet multichannel I'm not so sure
 

Axo1989

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People have seemed interested in multi-channel Genelec setups for a while now, so I figured I would make one post with photos and other information about my own setup, rather than pointing people to posts spread over a dozen+ threads.

ndMNMWX.png


qL885Zo.jpg


Gear
L/C/R are Genelec 8351Bs.
LS/RS are Genelec 8341As.
4 x Heights are Neumann KH80.
2 x Subwoofers are Arendal 1723 2S.

Stands are: K&M 26706 Base Plate + 24623 Rod (heights/surrounds) + 26736 Rod (L/R). The 19780 adapter is used for all speakers, but the 19610 could also be used. The 8351Bs are pretty near the weight limit for that adapter, so they tend to sag a bit, but flipping the adapters upside down(so the angle adjustment can only tilt upwards) fixed that. The friction clamp on the 19780 will not hold an 8351B(14.3kg) but will hold an 8341A(9.8kg). If the speaker is at the minimum height, the clamp does not need to support the weight because it will rest on the lower tube section.

Electronics: Denon X4500H + Nvidia Shield TV Pro.

TV: LG 65" C9 OLED.

For anyone else who wants to do this, I suggest taking care with selecting your distance rods, since the 19780 adapter clamps on the upper 35mm section of the rod, but NOT on the lower 42mm one. So there is a minimum height you can use that depends on the particular rod.

FAQ
1. Why not use digital outputs for the Genelecs?

So far it's not really practical if you want an AVP that can decode Atmos and upmix w/Auro3D, which I do. The cheapest option is the JBL SDP-55($6K) with its Dante outputs, but that has some kind of bug that makes a ticking sound sometimes. Other options would be Storm/Trinnov processors(too $$$ for me) with digital output options, or modifying your own AVR to have digital outputs. I am very skeptical there is any audible improvement except maybe a small noise floor reduction, so it's not a major concern. I would like to use Dante just to clean up the cabling situation, though.

2. Why not use Genelec subwoofers? Don't they integrate better?

Genelec subwoofers are really expensive relative to the SPL they output. And unfortunately, GLM does not have a particularly sophisticated subwoofer EQ system for home listening. This post elaborates. But the short version is that GLM's subwoofer EQ strategy is not as sophisticated as Multi-Sub Optimizer or Dirac Bass Control. All that said, Genelec subwoofers are very convenient especially for stereo setups and I wouldn't hesitate to buy them if you don't want to worry about manual sub integration.

3. Do you use GLM or Audyssey?

I use both. I run GLM first, and then Audyssey afterwards. This minimizes the corrections Audyssey needs to perform. Doing it the other way around would also work, but it introduces the problem that GLM might create a level or EQ mismatch in the subwoofer crossover area, since it cannot measure the subwoofers. If I had a full Genelec system with Genelec subwoofers, I would probably only use GLM.

4. Measurements?

I'll add more detail later, but for now here is a single point full-range measurement and a spectrogram. This is after GLM+Audyssey correction, and with Multi-Sub Optimizer. Since this is a single point measurement, the high frequency information is not super accurate.

index.php


index.php


5. Why no room treatment?

Mostly haven't gotten around to it. The frequency response is pretty good as-is, honestly. I would like to reduce the RT60 times somewhat overall but that's about it. I am planning to add a little room treatment eventually, but I need to make sure I purchase things that will look reasonably decent in the room and match the furniture etc, so that is a concern, and may require a custom order. That complicates things since I need to figure out where I want treatment before I order it.

6. Why not ported subs/Why dual opposed subs?

They're mostly too large for my space. While there are similar sized ported subs to the Arendals that offer a bit more low end output, they tend to have port tunings above/close to 20hz, and I don't love the increased group delay caused by that. It's very unclear if it's audible, to be honest, but I'd rather not worry about it. Also, a nice side benefit of dual opposed woofer subs is that they don't physically vibrate or move at all. So you can reasonably use them as end tables, as I am doing on the right side of the sofa, and you don't have to worry about anything rattling or falling off of them.

7. How did you use Multi-Sub Optimizer with this setup?

Good question. The TLDR; is that you can use anything that allows PEQs for each subwoofer channels, and in this case, the subwoofers themselves have 7 PEQ slots for each one. There is some information in this post here. I am planning to write a mini-tutorial on this later.

8. How are your heights configured?

They are set as "Front" and "Rear" heights. This is fairly important, as "Surround Heights" will NOT be used for Atmos output. Yes, this is a little out of spec because they're not really "Rear" heights, but it sounds fine. I am aware some people like to be super picky about using tops and heights separately for Atmos and Auro3D, but that just isn't practical in a space like this. Honestly, I think heights work OK for Atmos, as long as the angle between the listener and the speaker is relatively steep. At the end of the day, you're always better off with suboptimally positioned height/tops than none.

9. Why Neumann KH80s for heights and not Genelec 8331As or 8030C etc/Why don't the Neumanns match?

The Neumanns were my first purchases, and the black ones were on sale. I bought them before I'd even decided to start using Genelecs. I likely will replace them eventually with matching white Genelecs(but 8331As are insanely expensive for height use...) but it's a low priority. Probably won't happen until I move and am forced to tear down the whole system anyways. There are no audible issues with them as they are, heights just aren't that important.

10. Why not Genelec 8361As for L/C/R?

I considered them, but I think they're a bit too large and they're also heavier than I wanted to deal with. They would not be able to be mounted using the adapters and stands I've chosen, for example. This system has plenty of output for a ~2.5m listening distance, especially since I upmix everything with Auro3D so the center helps even stereo material. Of course I want W371As one day, but probably not in this room...

11. Why no W371As?

I accept donations. :)
Thanks for such detailed info on your setup. Your apartment is great btw (if a bit challenging acoustically).
 
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Sancus

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TheFrator

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Yep, still performing perfectly. I would definitely recommend them to anyone looking for subs.
So I plan to get 1 1723 2S sub in a little while then adding another one once I move in 6 months (I don't want to both with moving 2 subs lmao). Do you know if Multi Sub Optimizer (MSO) can be used effectively with just 1 subwoofer?

Though I guess if I just have 1 sub, I can measure that in REW and the use the PEG to get as close to a flat response as I can.
 
OP
Sancus

Sancus

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So I plan to get 1 1723 2S sub in a little while then adding another one once I move in 6 months (I don't want to both with moving 2 subs lmao). Do you know if Multi Sub Optimizer (MSO) can be used effectively with just 1 subwoofer?

Though I guess if I just have 1 sub, I can measure that in REW and the use the PEG to get as close to a flat response as I can.

I *think* that MSO will still work with 1 sub, but there's really no point. It won't do anything special with 1 sub. I would just use REW for filter generation and delay w/ the alignment tool. If you only want to learn how MSO works though, it should be fine to use it.
 
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Can these poles and adaptors be used with SVS elevation speakers?
Not as stock, but maybe if you drilled out some kind of adapter plate for it? The SVS speaker brackets use 1/4" screws as I understand, these ones are M6.
 
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