Non-Genelec subwoofers with Genelec SAM Monitors

[Sprint]

Hi ASR experts,

Currently I have Genelec surround set up 8340 and 8330 measured by GLM, with 2 SVS SB-12 NSD subs run by Yamaha RX-V775. My Yamahas and SVS subs were brought in 2014. The YPAO does a mediocre job in sub integration especially for 2 channel music. Movies are still fine. Ofcourse the best integration with subs will be with Genelec subs but a pair of 12" subs (7370) will be over 5,5K euros. Many have recommended that the Genelec subs are overpriced and one can achieve sonic qualities with other non-genelec subs.

Are anyone in the ASR forum using Genelec SAM monitors with non Genelec subwoofers? If yes, here are some of my questions:

• Which AVR or processor are you using?
• How are you handling bass management, integration and measurements for subwoofers to integrate with the Genelec SAM monitors?
• Finally, which non-Genelec subwoofers do you find it go well with Genelec SAM? I live in Europe.

At the end, I am looking for making my current set up even better. I am tending towards buying Denon x3700H for using Audyssey to do bass management and measurements.

Looking forward to your tips!

Appreciate your help!

 

[Sprint]

Any one running Genelec SAM monitors with GLM and non-Genelec subs?

 

[samysound]

Im using 8341 with a pair of svs subs and minidsp SHD. Bass integration is via SHD after which correction via dirac (i.e. not using glm). I have not tested GLM vs dirac though I suspect dirac may be better for a optimization over a larger listing window probably more typical of your home audio setup. My setup is strictly two channel...

for phase and volume integration of the subs to mains, I used the following method from soundoctor.com. You can probably do better via REW and measurement if you have the time.

"Invert the polarity of the MAIN speaker the sub is CLOSEST TO. Disconnect all the other speakers in the room. Place your head equidistant between the sub and the speaker it is closest to. Play the 80 Hz tone. Adjust the phase control AND the level control and both settings of the polarity switch until you hear a distinct NULL. (IT MIGHT EVEN DISAPPEAR COMPLETELY) There should be some setting of the two controls on the JL sub which will provide a rather sharp null - this is a CRITICAL setting and you might find it to be very sharp. Now put the wiring back the correct way to that one speaker. Reconnect the other speaker and you're done.

If you have 2 subs repeat either of the above procedures with the mains speaker the 2nd sub is closest to. All the sinewave tone tracks are recorded exactly the same on both channels therefore you can disconnect either L or R speaker for your convenience."

 

[Sancus]

This is as good a thread as any to info dump what I've learned about Genelec subs and SAM speakers. I've gone back and forth with Genelec support a little bit trying to figure out how their sub support actually works. Here's what I've learned:

• Bass management is done through the subwoofer, so each channel that you want bass managed has to be input to the subwoofer first, then to the respective monitor.
• Subwoofers are individually EQed by WooferCal and phase aligned with a specific monitor.
• A subwoofer can handle the bass for up to 7 monitors, and no more than that. If you need more than that, you must buy at least 1 additional subwoofer.
• Genelec does not have a good solution to spread the bass from 1 channel across multiple subwoofers. You CAN do this, it requires daisy chaining the subwoofers, but then you have to perform a manual level adjustment post-calibration. You also must do this even if you only want to use multiple subwoofers to play the LFE channel. As of late 2022, GLM has introduced "subwoofer groups" to do the level adjustment for you. But that's all the group does. This just makes it less tedious, doesn't change anything else.
• In any case, GLM has no way to automatically EQ the summed output of multiple subwoofers the way that Audyssey or Dirac Bass Control does.
• All GLM crossovers are 8th order Linkwitz(48dB/oct) including subs and the W371A.

I've concluded that GLM is very effective, fast, and easy if you have a stereo pair and you want to add 1 or 2 subwoofers. However, for multi-channel setups it's not so easy or optimal. Considering the cost of GLM subwoofers, I've concluded it's just not worth it for a multi-channel setup where you want 2+ subwoofers.

I currently have a 5.1.2 system with 1 old SVS SB12-NSD. Planning to eventually upgrade to 2-3 Rythmik F12s. Audyssey does just fine for bass management, including phase alignment, at least to my ear. I haven't attempted to measure how good the phase alignment is, but I may do so eventually.

Note that I do use GLM before Audyssey calibration. You don't have to, and I'm not totally sure it's ideal, but it does seem to reduce the amount of correction Audyssey needs to do. You can also restrict Audyssey from calibrating above a certain frequency with the MultEQ app. However, if you use Dynamic EQ, it will make changes to the entire frequency range regardless of your setting there.

To me there's basically 3 options if you've decided Genelec subwoofers aren't for you:

1) Denon+Audyssey. Very little work, and not overly expensive. Works well, good for up to 2 subwoofers. Does basic phase alignment and EQ of the summed response. Does a pretty decent job of both.
2) Multi-Sub Optimizer + MiniDSP(with or without Dirac). Many hours of manual work, measurements, experimentation, and understanding required. But should provide better performance, and you could use considerably more than 2 subwoofers.
3) Dirac w/ Bass Control. Don't really know that much about how it actually works in detail, but possibly the most sophisticated option. Currently only available on $4K+ AVRs/AVPs.

Unless you are willing to do a lot of work or spend a lot of money(or both) I think Audyssey is the best option.

 

[realdb]

Doesnt minidsp have dirac with bass control even on the entry minidsp ddrc24.

 

[samysound]

Doesnt minidsp have dirac with bass control even on the entry minidsp ddrc24.

The minidsp devices have bass management (e.g. delay settings, high/low cross-overs, gain control) but they do not have the Dirac "Bass Control" feature available (at least not yet). Phase, cross-overs, volume must be set manually prior to running dirac.

 

[Sprint]

View attachment 110594

I just brought this few days back. Plan to set up this weekend. With this, I will be running GLM4 for Genelec SAM monitors and use minidsp DDRC24 with DIRAC for my 2 SVS 12nsd subs. I will give you an update on how a combination of GLM and Dirac sounds !

 

[realdb]

I just brought this few days back. Plan to set up this weekend. With this, I will be running GLM4 for Genelec SAM monitors and use minidsp DDRC24 with DIRAC for my 2 SVS 12nsd subs. I will give you an update on how a combination of GLM and Dirac sounds !

Looking forward to your feedback

 

[samysound]

I just brought this few days back. Plan to set up this weekend. With this, I will be running GLM4 for Genelec SAM monitors and use minidsp DDRC24 with DIRAC for my 2 SVS 12nsd subs. I will give you an update on how a combination of GLM and Dirac sounds !

Hi, why not just use Dirac for the main speakers and subs? would be better to integrate the mains and subs this way and also Dirac seems like a more more powerful correction system than GLM

 

[realdb]

Hi, why not just use Dirac for the main speakers and subs? would be better to integrate the mains and subs this way and also Dirac seems like a more more powerful correction system than GLM

So where do you suggest running dirac on? Because you mentioned minidsp doesn’t support Dirac bass control

 

[samysound]

For a two channel system, the recommendation is to run Dirac with the main speaker and subwoofer combined for each channel. For example with a 2.1 setup you would run two Dirac channels: L+Sub and R+Sub. You do this after manually integrating the subwoofers wit hte mains (setting crossovers, delays and volume matching). Dirac will then clean everything up

Dirac Bass Control is a newish feature for improved integration of low frequency sources which is only available on a few devices...

 

[realdb]

I just brought this few days back. Plan to set up this weekend. With this, I will be running GLM4 for Genelec SAM monitors and use minidsp DDRC24 with DIRAC for my 2 SVS 12nsd subs. I will give you an update on how a combination of GLM and Dirac sounds !

I assume you will be running GLM first with sub off and then dirac with sub on once the genelec are already tuned. Correct?

 

[Sprint]

Hi, why not just use Dirac for the main speakers and subs? would be better to integrate the mains and subs this way and also Dirac seems like a more more powerful correction system than GLM

the minidsp DDRC24 that I brought has only 4 analog outputs. In general, I am very happy with GLM. When I have GLM, I want to stick with this as I have already invested. However not many have compared AB GLM Vs Dirac. Having faith in the quality of Genelec, I would assume GLM is doing a pretty good job here. if I had not invested in GLM, it would have gone for minidsp 88D

 

[samysound]

the minidsp DDRC24 that I brought has only 4 analog outputs. In general, I am very happy with GLM. When I have GLM, I want to stick with this as I have already invested. However not many have compared AB GLM Vs Dirac. Having faith in the quality of Genelec, I would assume GLM is doing a pretty good job here. if I had not invested in GLM, it would have gone for minidsp 88D

well I think dirac is at least comparable to GLM and since you are calibrating the mains and subs separately, you cannot take advantage of optimizing them together.

if you had genelecs subs it would make sense to all GLM for the sub integration features.

 

[__egn]

Currently also in a similar position here.
Genelec documentation on multi-sub here.

It would be really nice for Genelec to have a MiniDSP DDRC-88A/D solution - otherwise, you can see for anything more than a two-channel setup it becomes increasingly convoluted. Hopefully, they will - it would be a neat product for production studios to move to a multi-channel workflow for immersive audio as that becomes more prevalent.

However, for myself, it's a home theatre - multi-sub is everything, and MiniDSP with Dirac is far better of a solution.
I'm currently thinking of two options:

Option 1: Full Dirac Calibration (Self-explanatory)
Option 2: Dirac & GLM
• Run GLM for all loudspeakers
• Bass manage (crossovers done in MiniDSP) and tune the entire setup from transition frequency with DIRAC

I don't think full GLM is worth it, considering the wiring solution.
Option 1 is the cleanest solution and agnostic to any speaker, but then why purchase SAM monitors?
Option 2 utilises (s not z becuase I'm Australian) SAM/GLM but at the cost of juggling variables throughout the entire signal chain.

 

[ErikDam]

Hi sprint,

I was struggliing with the same issues as you.

My setup is a Denon AVC-8500H with Genelec 8331's, 8320's and a DIY sub eq'ed with a miniDSP 2x4 HD in a 5.1.4 configuration.
I don't care much for Audyssey, with GLM being far superior IMHO, but subwoofer integration was going to be an issue, obviously.
I did the following (@ the ASR community: feel free to point out any errors!):

1) let GLM eq all the speakers, REW and miniDSP eq the sub.
2) set the time-of-flight-delay for each speaker to 0 in the GLM software
3) ran the Audyssey setup on the AVR
4) disabled Audyssey but kept the delay settings (If you use the app, you can set Audyssey to just handle the low frequencies if you prefer).

Your speakers and your sub should now be timealigned (unless I'm missing something

 

[192kbps]

This is as good a thread as any to info dump what I've learned about Genelec subs and SAM speakers. I've gone back and forth with Genelec support a little bit trying to figure out how their sub support actually works. Here's what I've learned:

• Bass management is done through the subwoofer, so each channel that you want bass managed has to be input to the subwoofer first, then to the respective monitor.
• Subwoofers are individuallyphase aligned with a specific monitor.
• A subwoofer can handle the bass for up to 7 monitors, and no more than that. If you need more than that, you must buy at least 1 additional subwoofer.
• Genelec does not have a good solution to spread the bass from 1 channel across multiple subwoofers. You CAN do this, it requires daisy chaining the subwoofers, but then you have to perform a manual level adjustment post-calibration. You also must do this even if you only want to use multiple subwoofers to play the LFE channel. As of late 2022, GLM has introduced "subwoofer groups" to do the level adjustment for you. But that's all the group does. This just makes it less tedious, doesn't change anything else.
• In any case, GLM has no way to automatically EQ the summed output of multiple subwoofers the way that Audyssey or Dirac Bass Control does.
• All GLM crossovers are 8th order Linkwitz(48dB/oct) including subs and the W371A.

I've concluded that GLM is very effective, fast, and easy if you have a stereo pair and you want to add 1 or 2 subwoofers. However, for multi-channel setups it's not so easy or optimal. Considering the cost of GLM subwoofers, I've concluded it's just not worth it for a multi-channel setup where you want 2+ subwoofers.

I currently have a 5.1.2 system with 1 old SVS SB12-NSD. Planning to eventually upgrade to 2-3 Rythmik F12s. Audyssey does just fine for bass management, including phase alignment, at least to my ear. I haven't attempted to measure how good the phase alignment is, but I may do so eventually.

Note that I do use GLM before Audyssey calibration. You don't have to, and I'm not totally sure it's ideal, but it does seem to reduce the amount of correction Audyssey needs to do. You can also restrict Audyssey from calibrating above a certain frequency with the MultEQ app. However, if you use Dynamic EQ, it will make changes to the entire frequency range regardless of your setting there.

To me there's basically 3 options if you've decided Genelec subwoofers aren't for you:

1) Denon+Audyssey. Very little work, and not overly expensive. Works well, good for up to 2 subwoofers. Does basic phase alignment and EQ of the summed response. Does a pretty decent job of both.
2) Multi-Sub Optimizer + MiniDSP(with or without Dirac). Many hours of manual work, measurements, experimentation, and understanding required. But should provide better performance, and you could use considerably more than 2 subwoofers.
3) Dirac w/ Bass Control. Don't really know that much about how it actually works in detail, but possibly the most sophisticated option. Currently only available on $4K+ AVRs/AVPs.

Unless you are willing to do a lot of work or spend a lot of money(or both) I think Audyssey is the best option.

Does Dirac Live support more than 1 subwoofer?

 

[Sancus]

Does Dirac Live support more than 1 subwoofer?

I'm actually not sure about just basic Dirac Live. It may work as just totally separate channels? It doesn't optimize multiple subwoofers properly though, no. You need the bass control add-on for that, and then it does.

With basic Dirac only, I would use a miniDSP to present the sub array to Dirac as one channel.