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Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

YSC

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Well I don’t agree on this. There are humans that (think they) hear an improvement over time but a lot of people do not hear any change. A company could choose for a statement like that. Other companies decide to tell customers to be patient.

Anyway, it does not happen often that someone gets an identical set of speakers twice, making it possible to hear the difference between burnt-in and new (I read 3 here, including mine). I really would like to hear an explanation why several people in this topic experienced exactly that. I think it is impossible to imagine a second burn in process that follows the exact same lines as months before.

It is perfectly OK for me when you tell me that I lie. Psychological explanations are only allowed when you studied it.
“We do not consider 'burn in' an issue. When our loudspeakers leave the factory they are in perfect working order and their performance will not change over time unless they are not cared for or get very old.

I think 'burn in' was probably invented by hi-fi dealers so that when they sell a cable for 500 euros and the customer complains he can't hear any difference the dealer can tell them it needs 'burning in'. After the customer has waited for two weeks for the cable to 'burn in' he has forgotten how his system sounded in the first place and can't be bothered to complain again.”


Well this is from ATC whom you regarded as having long burn in time and sounded significantly different... unless you tell me all their guys in developing isn't having as good a ear as you guys who can hear the effect, why do you think they can design such great drivers and test to verify? if you think measurements don't represent anything they should be able to use their ears to create those great drivers no?

for Human illusion of burn in I can give you a few opinions on my side for explaination:
1) You adapted and self filtered the sound: as one could adapt to living near the railroad and have some nice sleep, your brain did those filtering for the "annoying" part of the sound the same speaker playing the same tracks over and over, and that makes it sounded better and improved, much like how a lot of weird looking cars got the feel of "man, that's UGLY" when first released, but then after 5-6 years you adapted to the design and it looks more acceptable or even nice on street, how a car looked definitly won't change sens the paint degradation, unless you keep on crashing it to something I believe.

2) Confirmation Bias: we all tend to have this somehow, like when you feel your fridge is sounding funny, your car having some crackling sound which isn't heard before, one would search for signs or google stuffs that told you it's ok, nothing to worry about and feels better, until it finally breaks.

In normal life we can try our best to overcome this by looking for data and measurements, cause electronic equipments don't have confirmation bias as us living human do, if the measurements confirms what you think you're likely right, if objective data shows it's not what you think, it's more likely an illusion. that's how science comes to prove and disprove. Audio is tricky as how sound is perceived changes with mental and health condition severely, I still remember once I suddenly feel my getting used to headphone/speaker suddenly sounded very harsh and bass light, ended up I took a thermometer and I was having fever which I don't feel it... and when you think it does burn in, you will look for it every time passed, or when you changed to a new pair of the same speaker, think it must sound crap and need another few months to burn in before sounding great, in those cases your brain will focus on finding the annoying part of the sound which is always there but ignored previously.


sound is sometimes like a grassfield, that squirrel is always there but most of the time when you just glance at it you wont notice it, unless you try hard to find it, or same as how ppl keep seeing clouds mimicking Jesus or Devil or so, when you wanted to look for something, our brain is good at self convincing it is there. as for how a lot of ppl believe and experienced the break in... you can also go to search for flat earthers, you will be surprised how many ppl believe you will sail off the edge of the world
 
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Spkrdctr

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Audio is tricky as how sound is perceived changes with mental and health condition severely, I still remember once I suddenly feel my getting used to headphone/speaker suddenly sounded very harsh and bass light, ended up I took a thermometer and I was having fever which I don't feel it... and when you think it does burn in, you will look for it every time passed, or when you changed to a new pair of the same speaker, think it must sound crap and need another few months to burn in before sounding great, in those cases your brain will focus on finding the annoying part of the sound which is always there but ignored previously.

So, to sum up your post, a lot of people are just not right in the head? I agree 100%. :)
Especially audiophools, I mean audiopiles, I mean audiophiles. Gosh, what more can I say?
 
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YSC

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So, to sum up your post, a lot of people are just not right in the head? I agree 100%. :)
Especially audiophools, I mean audiopiles, I mean audiophiles. Gosh, what more can I say?
Er.. you could say that, but I do think in audio a lot of bias can be had as human perception changes so regularly, yet audiophile is the group where a lot of them believe in some mysterious stuffs unable to be measured exists
 

VintageFlanker

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Random anecdote of the day (since we should apparently rely on this kind of things).

Few weeks ago, I had the replace the midwoofer of one of my A500s, after my cat pierced it.

Screenshot_20211028-090832~2.png


After mounting the new one I didn't noticed any difference in sound, thought I listened to music with these exact same speakers everyday for about one year.

Is that any kind of relevant? I don't think so. Would it be more reliable if I claimed the opposite? Nope.

My two cents. Cheers.
 

pozz

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So, to sum up your post, a lot of people are just not right in the head? I agree 100%. :)
Especially audiophools, I mean audiopiles, I mean audiophiles. Gosh, what more can I say?
People think hearing is passive: sound happens and you hear it. It's not. None of the senses are. They are directed by the brain. Hearing is an active process informed by unconscious choices.

Many audiophiles are simply unaware and understand neither themselves nor their systems. Their fault is in that: accepting ignorance as a fact of life and enjoying an apparent surplus of knowledge (certain designers, dealers, groups have it figured out) and a lack of it (neither hearing nor speaker performance can be measured, meaningfully).
 

Koeitje

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Random anecdote of the day (since we should apparently rely on this kind of things).

Few weeks ago, I had the replace the midwoofer of one of my A500s, after my cat pierced it.

View attachment 161780

After mounting the new one I didn't noticed any difference in sound, thought I listened to music with these exact same speakers everyday for about one year.

Is that any kind of relevant? I don't think so. Would it be more reliable if I claimed the opposite? Nope.

My two cents. Cheers.
Or you didn't expect there to be a difference, thus not hearing a difference even if there was one. Just playing devil's advocate here ;).
 

Rc Lobarniz

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My humble opinion is this one, what if it was true that breaking-in really exist and it is measurable. OK, let's assume after the test some differences are appreciated, we prove breaking-in is real, fine with that.
But why every one that believes in braking-in assumes it is always for a positive outcome?, like performance is always improving not diminishing.
This positive outcome assumption proves the point that the placebo effect and not measuments leads us to no nothing and perception is just that, as far away from the truth as 'we can imagine'.
 

VintageFlanker

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Or you didn't expect there to be a difference, thus not hearing a difference even if there was one. Just playing devil's advocate here ;).
That's exactly what I wanted to say: expectation bias works both ways and we can't rely on anecdotes.

We need hard study, data and blind tests to find out if burn-in could or couldn't be a thing.
 

ergre

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Random anecdote of the day (since we should apparently rely on this kind of things).

Few weeks ago, I had the replace the midwoofer of one of my A500s, after my cat pierced it.

View attachment 161780

After mounting the new one I didn't noticed any difference in sound, thought I listened to music with these exact same speakers everyday for about one year.

Is that any kind of relevant? I don't think so. Would it be more reliable if I claimed the opposite? Nope.

My two cents. Cheers.
Maybe it is not relevant but it is expected. If you did hear a difference that would really be strange. There would maybe be some difference in the compliance if we believe the people who say break-in is real giving a bit of a change in the lower end. It is not a particular sensitive part of our hearing and you would probably not even be able to measure it in your room if you think about what your room is doing to your bass response.
 

Spkrdctr

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Or you didn't expect there to be a difference, thus not hearing a difference even if there was one. Just playing devil's advocate here ;).
Woah! Woah! Bringing the devil into this topic is just mean. He gets blamed for everything all day long all around the world. Now we are going to add audiophile behavior on him? He should immediately go on strike and refuse to budge (sit down strike) until he receives an apology and is given a safe place to hang out in. Plus a few thousand dollars of reparation money for appropriating his name. Come to find out, even he doesn't like audiophools, I mean audiophiles!
 
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Kal Rubinson

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I have become a believer in ear breakin or mind adjustment.
I believe Henry David Thoreau said in Walden, "A man can get used to sleeping right next to the railroad track." I have experienced this and it happens.

Basically, adaptation. Unavoidable.
 

pozz

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What's the formal name for burn in materials science? It's a type of deformation called creep. For loudspeaker compliance, the phenomenon in question is viscoelastic creep.

https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=15507 (alternate link: https://orbit.dtu.dk/en/publication...-of-damping-and-compliance-in-loudspeaker-sus)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022460X1730826X?via=ihub
https://www.acoustics.asn.au/conference_proceedings/INTERNOISE2014/papers/p572.pdf (based on this PhD thesis: https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/LAUM/tel-03159167v1 @VintageFlanker)

The first article has this to say:
A loudspeakers suspension is commonly not, even by small signals, to be regarded as a simple spring following Hooke’s law – as otherwise presumed by traditional theory. Different types of polymers (rubber or plastic, either vulcanized, foamed or TPE) used for surrounds – besides impregnated textiles used for spiders – have more or less visco-elastic properties best known as the “creep” effect. This phenomenon in itself is normally of little interest in the audio frequency range. It is mainly a DC phenomenon. As such it manifests itself when a static (DC) force probes the speaker voice coil. ... Despite this, experience shows that frequency dependent mechanical damping nevertheless might be present.
I don't have time to investigate fully, but the thesis above by Balbine Maillou addresses this problem directly.
 

DSJR

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Well I don’t agree on this. There are humans that (think they) hear an improvement over time but a lot of people do not hear any change. A company could choose for a statement like that. Other companies decide to tell customers to be patient.

Anyway, it does not happen often that someone gets an identical set of speakers twice, making it possible to hear the difference between burnt-in and new (I read 3 here, including mine). I really would like to hear an explanation why several people in this topic experienced exactly that. I think it is impossible to imagine a second burn in process that follows the exact same lines as months before.

It is perfectly OK for me when you tell me that I lie. Psychological explanations are only allowed when you studied it.
Maybe it's changed, but have you seen ATC bass divers being made AND TESTED before being built into a cabinet? Bass units used to be thrashed (sorry, 'well exercised') at resonance for a considerable time - many minutes - to weed out any potentially faulty units, the vibe being that if they can withstand this abuse at the factory, they'd withstand anything an end user throws at them. I've owned three pairs from brand new and demonstrated many others in a retail situation - none of these changed one iota in use I remember. I don't know how their current ATC-made tweeters are tested though.

What DOES change on some tweeters is the output drops over time if they're hard used and also it seems, the dreaded ferro-fluid can dry out (maybe the hard use and thermal results on the voice coils causes it to dry out quicker?) and this really is easy to hear. Usually in a domestic box it's around ten to fifteen years though.
 
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Newman

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(In tweeters) it seems, the dreaded ferro-fluid can dry out (maybe the hard use and thermal results on the voice coils causes it to dry out quicker?) and this really is easy to hear.
Is it really easy to measure?
 

pjn

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Is it really easy to measure?
Yes - they stop tweeting. You can put your ear next to them and they are very faint or silent. Of course there's a long slope between "good as new" and "dead"
 

GXAlan

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Is it really easy to measure?
Yes, but ferrofluid tweeters (or at least the kind that dried out) was only used in the 90's.

How hard you drove the tweeters mattered and in the XPL90 that was measured here, there was speculation that the distortion could be due to dried ferrofluid.

It's similar to foam rot which is less prominent on today's materials. When it fails, it'll be obvious.
 
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