Speaker Break-In and Environmental Measurements

[MAB]

Never (said I was) acclimated to LS3/5, just listened to them 20 or 30 minutes a 30 years ago, not really impressed (morely bored).

I think we all become acclimated to the speakers we listen to. It's a psychological effect.

And Manger is probably not the only exception, as there may be some more drivers out there need some treatment to give them stable state of parameters.
Don't know what stuff is on YT, but to quote myself: "if done properly" "does no harm".

Yes. If you do break in, don't break. You can only imagine the stuff that is yelled at us on YouTube.
I will say I measured one speaker that has significant break-in, a HiVi B3N 3" driver. It changes enough that it does change audibly, although not exactly from horrible to good... I am willing to accept there are other exceptions.

Peace
(steal this one once, peace)

Same to you!

 

[ryanosaur]

I think we all become acclimated to the speakers we listen to. It's a psychological effect.

And this is what "Speaker Break In" really is. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Because the recommended break-in procedures to often come from YouTube, or a dealer. If you follow the advice that pervades YouTube, you may play them loud enough and long enough to wear them out. If you follow the dealer's advice, you will enter a circle of confusion and believe all sorts of things happen with your sound that don't.

Also, because Kef just recently wrote on their website misinformation about speaker break-in, phrased in the usual audiophile terms. When in fact environmental temperature changes in a room are larger effects than break-in.

And people are citing Klippel long term reliability and accelerated stress testing papers in this thread, confusing wear-out tests with break-in, which shows that we actually do need to talk about speaker break-in. And because people repeatedly misquote the physics of what actually happens during break-in. And I don't accept misquoting of physics, or misrepresentation of early life vs. end of life physical mechanisms.

And because people have all these unsupported anecdotes about how their speaker changed dramatically changed behavior, despite the fact I have now published about 20 tests over the years where new drivers have negligible break-in, and the changes in F(s) and Q tend to counteract, and are negligible (see Vance Dickason and Andrew Jones for example). It's absurd that people think these very large changes in sound actually occur.

And there you go. You acclimated to your speakers. LS3/5A are an acquired taste, I know this. So are Manger. I really think nothing broke in. I am willing to believe that Manger is an exception. But to be honest, I have measured new out of the box literally hundreds if not thousands of drivers from dozens of manufactures in the course of my old job, and remeasured many of them after use for service and the parameters don't change in a way that is audible, especially as you describe.

Why is it that you think I am confused when posting the links to Klippel tests? I wrote that I know it's stress tests and not break in tests.

I also stated several times, that this is not a black and white topic.

If you have measured all these thousands of drivers in your former job you must have some kind of data to show? (Otherwise why is your anecdote better than others?)

I think we all become acclimated to the speakers we listen to. It's a psychological effect.

I will say I measured one speaker that has significant break-in, a HiVi B3N 3" driver. It changes enough that it does change audibly, although not exactly from horrible to good... I am willing to accept there are other exceptions.

Exactly. It's not the norm. It's the exception. That's my experience as well. Accepting this means it can happen so not all peoples' experiences are imagination.

 

[MAB]

Why is it that you think I am confused when posting the links to Klippel tests? I wrote that I know it's stress tests and not break in tests.

Sorry.
It was misquoted earlier. Not by you though. Kef took it out of context, and I pointed it out earlier.

I also stated several times, that this is not a black and white topic.

If you have measured all these thousands of drivers in your former job you must have some kind of data to show? (Otherwise why is your anecdote better than others?)

I managed the installation crew at a large car-stereo store. We measured every speaker out of the box prior to install, since quality was a thing and there is surprising defect rate. And every speaker we pulled too. I think I have mentioned this to you before. I then did residential and commercial installation in the early '90s. While those are anecdotes, I have posted measurements on 6 break-in experiments now, and you have commented on them, so it's not like this is happening in a vacuum! I gently suggest that unless someone starts posting actual break-in data, somewhat controlled for temperature, I am not the one dropping anecdotes!

I got interested (again) because of the Kef thread linked on page 1 which has this odd thing on their website that a few ASR members (and myself) were taken aback by since it was claiming significant changes in sound as speaker break-in occurs. I was interested in their data. I would of course be happy of they shipped me drive units to burn in and demonstrate. Perhaps a few get lost in return shipping, so not worth their risk!

And on the black and white part, the HiVi micro-woofer did show a break-in effect! I even modeled the change of in-box results at the beginning of this thread! So please don't present that I am black and white on this, I'm actually with you. I am not sure if it is that the HiVi are tiny woofers, cheap drivers, or they were sitting for 10 years since I bought them. I actually wonder if the woofer size is the factor, but that is me wondering.
And I have been careful to show that each driver has changed, but the changes are really small to things like ambient room temperature.

So no, I can't go back and get all that data on all those drivers in my previous jobs, you probably guessed I had no access to whatsoever. But it doesn't change the experiments I have posted here and in other threads, and the fair amount of care I have take to show that there are differences, and compared those differences to simple things that matter more like room temperature.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Sorry.
It was misquoted earlier. Not by you though. Kef took it out of context, and I pointed it out earlier.

I managed the installation crew at a large car-stereo store. We measured every speaker out of the box prior to install, since quality was a thing and there is surprising defect rate. And every speaker we pulled too. I think I have mentioned this to you before. I then did residential and commercial installation in the early '90s. While those are anecdotes, I have posted measurements on 6 break-in experiments now, and you have commented on them, so it's not like this is happening in a vacuum! I gently suggest that unless someone starts posting actual break-in data, somewhat controlled for temperature, I am not the one dropping anecdotes!

I got interested (again) because of the Kef thread linked on page 1 which has this odd thing on their website that a few ASR members (and myself) were taken aback by since it was claiming significant changes in sound as speaker break-in occurs. I was interested in their data. I would of course be happy of they shipped me drive units to burn in and demonstrate. Perhaps a few get lost in return shipping, so not worth their risk!

And on the black and white part, the HiVi micro-woofer did show a break-in effect! I even modeled the change of in-box results at the beginning of this thread! So please don't present that I am black and white on this, I'm actually with you. I am not sure if it is that the HiVi are tiny woofers, cheap drivers, or they were sitting for 10 years since I bought them. I actually wonder if the woofer size is the factor, but that is me wondering.
And I have been careful to show that each driver has changed, but the changes are really small to things like ambient room temperature.

So no, I can't go back and get all that data on all those drivers in my previous jobs, you probably guessed I had no access to whatsoever. But it doesn't change the experiments I have posted here and in other threads, and the fair amount of care I have take to show that there are differences, and compared those differences to simple things that matter more like room temperature.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

And this is what "Speaker Break In" really is. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

I believe almost all "break-in" in audio is ear/brain break-in.

I do believe in a small amount of temperature/humidity break-in, especially for gear that's spent months in an unheated warehouse or shipping container and is delivered direct (not via a dealer).

 

[valerianf]

Thank you @Maab for showing that the electro-mechanical device named speaker has a break-in.
Numbers are confirming logic.

But there is another parameter.
High end speakers manufacturers as for some Focal speakers are testing individually each driver unit.
With these not any breaking will be obsevered at home.

 

[MAB]

But there is another parameter.
High end speakers manufacturers as for some Focal speakers are testing individually each driver unit.

Agree this is important.
In the course of posting all of these break-in tests, you may notice that I do see driver to driver mismatches.
The Peerless woofers driver to driver mismatch is larger than the break-in effect.

The one speaker I ever tested with large break-in effect also has one mismatched driver in my batch, driver C has over 5% higher L(e)!

And one of my many break-in posts involves a very expensive Seas W18 woofer that had a defect (surround not adhered to cone).

I tested the warranty replacement woofer for when I got the new replacement driver out of the box and found only tiny changes with break-in, smaller than room temperature changes for instance. And the Seas W18 are typically well matched within a series, however there are at least two significantly different revisions of this woofer, each with different parameters and measurements.

Active DSP DIY speakers, for testing a few ideas

FFLOTSAM (Fabricated From LeftOver Things Studio Active Monitor) Active DSP speakers, for testing a few ideas I had some stuff lying around; a few random Baltic Birch-ply panels, some countertop material, a few cans of partially used brown spray paint, and some not-too clumpy spar varnish (that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The point is even a premium driver ships with defects, and has changes in manufacturing. I alluded to this earlier in this thread, ignore break-in and test to make sure you don't have a defect! I ran a car stereo store and installed and serviced a range of drivers from (ADS, JBL, Vifa, Jensen etc.) We had great quality from a few manufacturers (JBL in particular), but endemic voice coil rubs and other issues with some brands and models. We tested every driver out of the box for defect and every driver in the car prior to demounting, both as a policy since it saves time, embarrassment, and ultimately frustration. We did very nice systems in show-cars in Central Valley CA so there was an expectation that we didn't hack a car to pieces because of a bad driver or amp, or a bad-sounding (or bad-looking) install. Along the way, I noticed that driver break in was typically tiny to the point of distraction, especially compared to the real-world issues like driver to driver mismatch and defects. In this ASR series of experiments of mine, I am attempting to more systematically explore this oddly promoted idea that drivers dramatically change with break-in, and speakers' sound dramatically changes as a result. They do not, with one exception measured to date: the HiVi micro-woofer.

Edit: typo

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Agree this is important.
In the course of posting all of these break-in tests, you may notice that I do see driver to driver mismatches.
The Peerless woofers driver to driver mismatch is larger than the break-in effect.

The one speaker I ever tested with large break-in effect also has one mismatched driver in my batch, driver C has over 5% higher L(e)!

And one of my many break-in posts involves a very expensive Seas W18 woofer that had a defect (surround not adhered to cone).

I tested the warranty replacement woofer for when I got the new replacement driver out of the box and found only tiny changes with break-in, smaller than room temperature changes for instance. And the Seas W18 are typically well matched within a series, however there are at least two significantly different revisions of this woofer, each with different parameters and measurements.

Active DSP DIY speakers, for testing a few ideas

FFLOTSAM (Fabricated From LeftOver Things Studio Active Monitor) Active DSP speakers, for testing a few ideas I had some stuff lying around; a few random Baltic Birch-ply panels, some countertop material, a few cans of partially used brown spray paint, and some not-too clumpy spar varnish (that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The point is even a premium driver ships with defects, and has changes in manufacturing. I alluded to this earlier in this thread, ignore break-in and test to make sure you don't have a defect! I ran a car stereo store and installed and serviced a range of drivers from (ADS, JBL, Vifa, Jensen etc.) We had great quality from a few manufacturers (JBL in particular), but endemic voice coil rubs and other issues with some brands and models. We tested every driver out of the box for defect and every driver in the car prior to demounting, both as a policy since it saves time, embarrassment, and ultimately frustration. We did very nice systems in show-cars in Central Valley CA so there was an expectation that we didn't hack a car to pieces because of a bad driver or amp, or a bad-sounding (or bad-looking) install. Along the way, I noticed that driver break in was typically tiny to the point of distraction, especially compared to the real-world issues like driver to driver mismatch and defects. In this ASR series of experiments of mine, I am attempting to more systematically explore this oddly promoted idea that drivers dramatically change with break-in, and speakers' sound dramatically changes as a result. They do not, with one exception measured to date: the HiVi micro-woofer.

Edit: typo

I would like to add that the whole discussion about break-in often is turned into ridiculing the idea from the point of view that it doesn't exist. It is often the case that it is not audible nor something to worry about at all. Other cases have shown (in my own experience and also backed by some others measurements) that it is and can be audible.

So. As people and drivers are diverse the effect exists and will or will not be audible depending on a myriad of variables.

 

[MAB]

I would like to add that the whole discussion about break-in often is turned into ridiculing the idea from the point of view that it doesn't exist. It is often the case that it is not audible nor something to worry about at all. Other cases have shown (in my own experience and also backed by some others measurements) that it is and can be audible.

That's why this thread is called break-in and environmental measurements, can we just see those measurements? You tagged me as dropping anecdotes earlier, I suggest the same absolutely applies to you. And I am clear from the beginning and provided tables of data showing the actual break-in values, and they are not zero! Good grief, you did this same game with me in Amir's break-in thread thread and never showed one iota of data, how many speakers. Even got thread-blocked for doing this same circular and data free argument. I recommend just start showing this data you allude to. I am interested if the HiVi are one-off, of if small woofers have different properties, of if cheap.
So show us some data. Need to see the entire set, since I need to see if testing a hot driver from the stress and confusing it with break-in.

So. As people and drivers are diverse the effect exists and will or will not be audible depending on a myriad of variables.

I just want to see the measurements.
I will keep posting as I get new drivers, and if I find another driver like the HiVi that does have measurable changes I will post that as well.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

That's why this thread is called break-in and environmental measurements, can we just see those measurements? You tagged me as dropping anecdotes earlier, I suggest the same absolutely applies to you. And I am clear from the beginning and provided tables of data showing the actual break-in values, and they are not zero! Good grief, you did this same game with me in Amir's break-in thread thread and never showed one iota of data, how many speakers. Even got thread-blocked for doing this same circular and data free argument. I recommend just start showing this data you allude to. I am interested if the HiVi are one-off, of if small woofers have different properties, of if cheap.
So show us some data. Need to see the entire set, since I need to see if testing a hot driver from the stress and confusing it with break-in.

I just want to see the measurements.
I will keep posting as I get new drivers, and if I find another driver like the HiVi that does have measurable changes I will post that as well.

Why do you think I'm arguing with you? I am not.
And I'm glad you have the means to measure and posts the results.

Oh, and there were measurements in that other thread. They were just dismissed. Videos of woofer measurements. Data on some dayton drivers if I recall. But not as detailed as yours. Other than that I can only refer to my own experience. Which I have made very clear already.
And getting thread banned is only showing the mood of the moderator at that particular point in time. So that's like rolling the dice.

 

[Descartes]

Thank you @Maab for showing that the electro-mechanical device named speaker has a break-in.
Numbers are confirming logic.

But there is another parameter.
High end speakers manufacturers as for some Focal speakers are testing individually each driver unit.
With these not any breaking will be obsevered at home.

Same thing with KEF Reference and the Blades!

 

[Soniclife]

Do we know much about tweeters, and drive units that work differently, ribbons etc.

 

[MAB]

Do we know much about tweeters, and drive units that work differently, ribbons etc.

Hi, I did post results of tweeter changes.
I had a bunch of Seas Excel fabric dome tweeters that I was replacing the diaphragms on.
Here is one tweeter I measured.
It didn't change one bit:

Original post is here:

Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

It wasn't really an honest question, now was it? Don't act all surprised to get a cheeky answer to that post. It’s a perfectly valid question, and one that’s bothered me as well. If we are to accept that the driver surround, spider and voice coil are changing significantly over time and there...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Its only one tweeter. But, others have looked at this much more exhaustively and come to the same result, and summarize nicely:

Floyd E. Toole, Sound Reproduction - Loudspeakers and Rooms, Chapter 17

 

[Descartes]

Hi, I did post results of tweeter changes.
I had a bunch of Seas Excel fabric dome tweeters that I was replacing the diaphragms on.
Here is one tweeter I measured.
It didn't change one bit:

Original post is here:

Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

It wasn't really an honest question, now was it? Don't act all surprised to get a cheeky answer to that post. It’s a perfectly valid question, and one that’s bothered me as well. If we are to accept that the driver surround, spider and voice coil are changing significantly over time and there...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Its only one tweeter. But, others have looked at this much more exhaustively and come to the same result, and summarize nicely:

Floyd E. Toole, Sound Reproduction - Loudspeakers and Rooms, Chapter 17

Love it! Toole is such an amazing engineer!

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Hi, I did post results of tweeter changes.
I had a bunch of Seas Excel fabric dome tweeters that I was replacing the diaphragms on.
Here is one tweeter I measured.
It didn't change one bit:

Original post is here:

Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

It wasn't really an honest question, now was it? Don't act all surprised to get a cheeky answer to that post. It’s a perfectly valid question, and one that’s bothered me as well. If we are to accept that the driver surround, spider and voice coil are changing significantly over time and there...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Its only one tweeter. But, others have looked at this much more exhaustively and come to the same result, and summarize nicely:

Floyd E. Toole, Sound Reproduction - Loudspeakers and Rooms, Chapter 17

Thanks. That’s why I am always very very skeptical when people claim that after a few hours it sounded more or less dull / bright or any other comments which relate to the higher frequency range.

And as you have shown even for lower frequencies, where more movement of the actual membrane takes place (and theoretically could lead to some minor changes in the rubber suspension ) the effects are much smaller than the temp / compression effects or manufacturing deviations, let alone that the audibility is questionable at best (provide not listening sighted).

Great work. Really refreshing after all that anecdotal nonsense.

 

[Ze Frog]

Break in is a simple con job created by the industry so when you buy something and take it home, if you don't immediately feel impressed that you give the piece of equipment time, whereby you adjust to it's sound and it seems OK. The higher the recommended break in, the more the manafacturer knows it's selling something pretty crap, so they'll suggest a lot longer so as to keep a normal user keeping them beyond the return date. Also, it keeps the customer happy with the belief somehow there system will magically improve as time goes by, and if a so called reviewer claiming to be an audio God tells them that they will hear that because they want to believe to justify a purchase, everyone always tries to justify any purchase they make even if they aren't aware, it's simply psychology and it's something heavily exploited in a world of getting people to buy, buy, buy.