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Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

ergre

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Do we agree that speaker drivers are not "free" oscillators? That they do not resonate at their resonance frequencies and produce tones? Instead, they are "forced" to oscillate by the magnetic-force interaction (between the electromagnetic coil of the speaker and its constant magnet)? With the frequency of the AC current (ie the sound waveform) flowing through the coil!?

Yes, in theory the internal resonance frequency(ies) of the speaker membrane can affect - eg amplify or reduce - the driving signal... However, (a) this might happen only very close to the resonance frequency and (b) even there would be negligible at the Q levels we're looking at.

So, to me the data you've pointed at does indicate that speakers' internal stiffness thus resonance frequency can/does change a bit over time. However, as this resonance frequency does not define/affect the output signal (aka the "frequency response" :) ) - that is driven by the efficiency/strength of the electromagnetic force - it does not have either (a) substantial audible or (b) positive ("sound improvement") effect on the music reproduction.
Maybe I don't understand you but it really does change the bass response. In fact you need to compensate for the reduced acoustic resistance at low frequencies and that is where you need that resonance. For a simple example look up how to design a closed box speaker.
 

HuubFranssen

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A learning point for me is that there is a tendency to keep discussions going on for ever. In this topic there are several posts with subjective experience, from different countries, of an identical situation: after some time for some reason speakers are replaced by the same brand and type. And the replacements suddenly (!) sounded much less. For me that is enough. Hifi is certainly science, but only for the first half. The second half is listening, experience, hope, disappointment, bankruptcy, taste, fear, fun, emotion. And of course, some people seem to hear more than others.
 
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Raindog123

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Maybe I don't understand you but it really does change the bass response. In fact you need to compensate for the reduced acoustic resistance at low frequencies and that is where you need that resonance. For a simple example look up how to design a closed box speaker.

Are we still talking about the resonance of the speaker driver or the box? A closed box design is really that sensitive to a couple-of-hertz resonance frequency change of the driver membrane!? Do you have a pointer, so I can educate myself? Thanks!
 

Spkrdctr

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Everyone knows that I have exceptional hearing and an exceptionally resolving system. I can state that with both I prove daily that all this subjective stuff is rubbish. Or, stated in engineering terms "Total BS". I hope I have opened up some eyes with this post. No one has a better resolving system than me or better hearing. Just because you subjectivists all have tin ears is not my fault.

I hope the above post gives others a pause for thought. :)
 
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ergre

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Are we still talking about the resonance of the speaker driver or the box? A closed box design is really that sensitive to a couple-of-hertz resonance frequency change of the driver membrane!? Do you have a pointer, so I can educate myself? Thanks!
They have one fundamental resonance frequency together in a closed box. You see that when you look at the electrical impedance curve. A reflex box is pretty much the same thing as a closed box but with an extra resonance added in the form of a port. That also is a spring and mass system. No I don't think it is that sensitive to a little change and "burn in" is clearly nonsense. You are never going to hear differences like that. The reason I react is more that I think it is an interesting subject. I have a book by Vance Dickason in dutch but I think it is a translation from English but I also bought an antique book by G.A. Briggs that explains it a lot better. The Dickason book is more of a design guide with little explanation. I know the Briggs book is extremely old so you may make fun of that ;-)
 

GXAlan

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Just to add to the thread, in Japan, Mitsubishi (Diatone) has a $7000/pair bookshelf with some graphene based materials.

What is relevant is that they seem to suggest that 2 hours of burn-in is needed from factory fresh condition. Since this is what they believe, they do that 2 hour burn-in at the factory before assigning the speaker a serial number.

I think the story should be flipped on manufactuers. Any manufacturer that talks about gear requiring “burn in” should have to defend why they don’t simply do the burn in for their customers so that the in-home experience (during a return period) is where the unit is working at optimal performance.

For a $50 mass produced speaker, sure. Every minute of labor adds cost.
For a premium product? Delivering it to the customer without peak performance is cutting corners.
 

coonmanx

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Just to add to the thread, in Japan, Mitsubishi (Diatone) has a $7000/pair bookshelf with some graphene based materials.

What is relevant is that they seem to suggest that 2 hours of burn-in is needed from factory fresh condition. Since this is what they believe, they do that 2 hour burn-in at the factory before assigning the speaker a serial number.

I think the story should be flipped on manufactuers. Any manufacturer that talks about gear requiring “burn in” should have to defend why they don’t simply do the burn in for their customers so that the in-home experience (during a return period) is where the unit is working at optimal performance.

For a $50 mass produced speaker, sure. Every minute of labor adds cost.
For a premium product? Delivering it to the customer without peak performance is cutting corners.
This 100%. If a manufacturer says that something need "burn-in" then they should do it before it even goes out the door...
 

HuubFranssen

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Just to add to the thread, in Japan, Mitsubishi (Diatone) has a $7000/pair bookshelf with some graphene based materials.

What is relevant is that they seem to suggest that 2 hours of burn-in is needed from factory fresh condition. Since this is what they believe, they do that 2 hour burn-in at the factory before assigning the speaker a serial number.

I think the story should be flipped on manufactuers. Any manufacturer that talks about gear requiring “burn in” should have to defend why they don’t simply do the burn in for their customers so that the in-home experience (during a return period) is where the unit is working at optimal performance.

For a $50 mass produced speaker, sure. Every minute of labor adds cost.
For a premium product? Delivering it to the customer without peak performance is cutting corners.

I agree, when a speaker needs burning in the company should do that. But… not everyone hears it and, in case of ATC speakers, ik takes weeks. So it is expensive and the people that can hear the burning-in miracle will be happy to wait.
 

tw99

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I agree, when a speaker needs burning in the company should do that. But… not everyone hears it and, in case of ATC speakers, ik takes weeks. So it is expensive and the people that can hear the burning-in miracle will be happy to wait.

According to ATC, their speakers don't need burn in, and don't change over time. They are on record with a public statement on this.
 

GXAlan

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I found this link with a bunch of different vendor replies. Unclear how true the responses are

Valuable anti-break in ones are

1) Scan speak. They say that break in does occur, but their Thiel parameters are for broken-in drivers and they say it can be done in 5 minutes by the cabinet/speaker manufacturer.

2) ATC. As above. No burn in needed.

3) Manger (Germany). They think it's 24 hours. They do it for you at the factory.

4) JBL Pro: Not really an issue. If anything, old age and wearing out is a bigger problem with paper cones.
 

HuubFranssen

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According to ATC, their speakers don't need burn in, and don't change over time. They are on record with a public statement on this.

Well I don’t agree on this. There are humans that (think they) hear an improvement over time but a lot of people do not hear any change. A company could choose for a statement like that. Other companies decide to tell customers to be patient.

Anyway, it does not happen often that someone gets an identical set of speakers twice, making it possible to hear the difference between burnt-in and new (I read 3 here, including mine). I really would like to hear an explanation why several people in this topic experienced exactly that. I think it is impossible to imagine a second burn in process that follows the exact same lines as months before.

It is perfectly OK for me when you tell me that I lie. Psychological explanations are only allowed when you studied it.
 

Killingbeans

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Psychological explanations are only allowed when you studied it.

So, when I see that the supermarkets place loads of candy right next to the checkout lines, I should just say: "Nahhh, I haven't studied psychology, so it must be a coincidence."? :D
 

HuubFranssen

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So, when I see that the supermarkets place loads of candy right next to the checkout lines, I should just say: "Nahhh, I haven't studied psychology, so it must be a coincidence."? :D

It happens that someone explains a strange finding with an even stranger psychological explanation.
 

Killingbeans

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Why is it strange? I don't want to be the guy who just tries to stamp everything with a big fat "IT'S JUST IN YOUR HEAD". I know that's not constructive.

But in this case it would be interesting to see whether the old speaker still had the same degradation in tonality if somebody swapped the old and the new one while you/they weren't looking.
 

Newman

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In this topic there are several posts with subjective experience, from different countries, of an identical situation: after some time for some reason speakers are replaced by the same brand and type. And the replacements suddenly (!) sounded much less. For me that is enough.
For you that is enough, for me that is a joke. I remember the HFNRR speaker tests from the past where they would plot the frequency response of the left and right speakers of a stereo pair under review, and the frequency response differences were sometimes laughably different. In fact, more than sometimes, it was more usual than the exception. In which case, the scenario that you described above really doesn’t tell us anything.
 
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Newman

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It happens that someone explains a strange finding with an even stranger psychological explanation.
Please outline the psychological explanation that is too weird for you. It might turn out that this is more about your lack of informativeness on the topic than about the explanation itself being in any way extraordinary, curious, or strange.
 
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richard12511

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Why is it strange? I don't want to be the guy who just tries to stamp everything with a big fat "IT'S JUST IN YOUR HEAD". I know that's not constructive.

But in this case it would be interesting to see whether the old speaker still had the same degradation in tonality if somebody swapped the old and the new one while you/they weren't looking.

I don't see anything wrong with the "It's just in your head" explanation. It's BY FAR the most likely explanation for these anecdotal "evidences". I can understand why people don't like to hear it about themselves, but I don't see any shame in it. We hear with our brains, not our ears, and there is simply no way around that atm.

Good to see ATC is honest about break in, though. Makes me respect them quite a bit more :).
 

Freeway

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A learning point for me is that there is a tendency to keep discussions going on for ever. In this topic there are several posts with subjective experience, from different countries, of an identical situation: after some time for some reason speakers are replaced by the same brand and type. And the replacements suddenly (!) sounded much less. For me that is enough. Hifi is certainly science, but only for the first half. The second half is listening, experience, hope, disappointment, bankruptcy, taste, fear, fun, emotion. And of course, some people seem to hear more than others.
I was thinking about some of this stuff this morning.
Some speaker manufacturers talk of pair matching, especially tweeters. I would presume this is done with measurements. They are basically saying no two speakers although made the same, sound the same. How they can sound much different is beyond me.
As for the ongoing debate. What is the point? After time they will be broken in. Hook them up and listen to music, turn it way up and leave the room, or put them very close face to face and really turn it up to concert levels (for Zu Audio). Whatever. They always sound better. Right?
If worried about the return time frame, if they don't sound good right out of the box don't wait around expecting miracles. Send them back.
I have become a believer in ear breakin or mind adjustment.
I believe Henry David Thoreau said in Walden, "A man can get used to sleeping right next to the railroad track." I have experienced this and it happens. Internal noise cancelling.
 
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Sir Sanders Zingmore

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I really would like to hear an explanation why several people in this topic experienced exactly that. I think it is impossible to imagine a second burn in process that follows the exact same lines as months before.

It is perfectly OK for me when you tell me that I lie. Psychological explanations are only allowed when you studied it.
Explanation is you seem to only hear what you want to hear - literally and figuratively
 

Killingbeans

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It's BY FAR the most likely explanation for these anecdotal "evidences".

I know. But I feel like I'm repeating myself so much that it's beginning to be just a reflex.

I don't like the way it makes me look. I don't want to be an attack dog that just barks at anything that moves.

Besides, a dialogue with no diplomacy is just two monologues.

Just keeping my fingers crossed that it won't backfire and give some random troll an opportunity to be the death of me :D
 
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