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Directiva driver candidate discussion

hex168

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But it has high distortion from what I can see. A bit blurry pictures, maybe someone else can see them more clearly?

I found the test on the Faital Pro 6FE100 here:

View attachment 239576

adamhall.s3.amazonaws.com
https://adamhall.s3.amazonaws.com › ...PDF
Table 1: Faital 6FE100 Woofer. - AWS
(Damn I can't copy the link, google it, see attached picture and you will find it)



It is very popular these days. :) I have it myself and intended to use it as a midrange driver in a pair of three-way DIY speakers. The only thing I'm thinking about is those nasty breakup frequencies. If it becomes audible or not, even if you use a 24dB filter and set the crossover somewhere between 1900-2500 Hz?

View attachment 239577


At least MAB thinks so with another driver that has unpleasant breakup modes, here's a thread about it and how he solves it:

View attachment 239578


A number of these in a line speaker?:)

I hadn't found the Test Bench test of the Faital 6FE100 - I agree the distortion looks too high, particularly that spike at ~750Hz. Vance Dickason frequently tests pro drivers at 104 dB, so I checked - this one is at 94 dB. I'd cross it off the list.
 

ryanosaur

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When my wife sees my big towers she may compromise. She keep reminding me that my hobbies need to fit in one room in our next place.

Am starting to think that one room looks like this…

View attachment 239597
Don’t be so pessimistic… :p

This should give you plenty of space for all your AV needs, including a full workshop!:
1666811811296.jpeg


It’s all about perspective!
;)
 

sarumbear

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I would in general prefer a woofer that doesn't try to do bass.
I’m lost what you mean by that. Isn’t woofer the name for the bass driver?
 
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Rick Sykora

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I’m lost what you mean by that. Isn’t woofer the name for the bass driver?

Your lost because you quoted him out of context?

He clearly states his preference for subwoofers and so his satellite speakers do not need to cover lower bass.
 

sarumbear

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Your lost because you quoted him out of context?

He clearly states his preference for subwoofers and so his satellite speakers do not need to cover lower bass.
Sorry for reading the sentence as it is written.
 
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Rick Sykora

Rick Sykora

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Harbottle Audio

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So...
Quad 24s then? :D

You can compromise and settle on 21s from Harbottle! ;)

If individuals do look at our drivers, the data bass versions are the v1 which have been replaced with more capable driver typologies. For the 21, you can add around 3 dB to all databass results. And for simulations, we have a series of 2 how to videos on our youtube channel to show how to use the Xmax guarantee. That guarantee converts the Xmax stroke rating into a usable and dependable design metric that is hard and fast. Very helpful in tweaking designs.
Helpful how-to's are also found in our Information section which outlines steps that can be taken to get the most accurate data set for systems designs.
 

D!sco

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I still believe in the Seas ER18RNX or one of the SB Acoustics 6"ers as a D-R1.5 model intended to be used with subwoofers. The Purifi woofer is amazing, state of the art, and exotic. But with a subwoofer there seems to be a lot of value thrown out in the long run.
 

DualTriode

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@Rick Sykora and All,

Thanks for starting this thread.

Interesting, your wife's approach. No subs in her house. Leading to your approach, as much bass extension in one enclosure as possible. (Tongue in cheek. )

One thought in my head (There are also other layers of thought.) is to squeeze as much frequency range and minimized distortion into mini 2-way near-field on my work bench as possible.

For this set of compromises I have used sealed Denovo 0.55 Ft^3 enclosures with an assortment of Vifa, Peerless and the like drivers. All of which sound good and test well at near field voice amplitudes. Put on a video and turn up the amplitude, what I call half round distortion becomes problematic. So far Purifi 6-1/2" 8R drivers are the best perceived and measured quality.

With no added equalization, in the scheme things this is not a bad result for late night listening. Tucked away below there is a 8 inch sub that is sometimes switched in or out for low frequency effects. (Sub. out of sight out of mind.)

A little high pass filtering of the sub 110Hz frequencies away from the 6-1/2" Purifi mid-bass minimizes mid frequency IMD. (Just a little theory and measurement conformation, by me.)

APx555 and GRAS microphone measurements show that FR and distortion are very much the same as the Purifi datasheet. Bass extension is very much as expected for a sealed box with Qtc := 0.64.

For general interest, in a recent AES Paper by the good people at Harman; for auto audio a Bass Shaker/vibrator attached to the car seat reduces the perceived need for sub frequencies amplitude in the car.

Thanks DT
I still believe in the Seas ER18RNX or one of the SB Acoustics 6"ers as a D-R1.5 model intended to be used with subwoofers. The Purifi woofer is amazing, state of the art, and exotic. But with a subwoofer there seems to be a lot of value thrown out in the long run.

Do it if you like.

My thought is that the added quality (reduced distortion) in a small speaker is easily perceived and measured especially as the amplitude is increased.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Don’t be so pessimistic… :p

This should give you plenty of space for all your AV needs, including a full workshop!:
View attachment 239618

It’s all about perspective!
;)

I like your perspective! Seems it might be warm in there though…

All joking aside, my wife hyperbole has a bit truth in it. I have speakers in almost every room in the house except one. No the bathrooms do not count. I am counting Amazon echo speakers though. These are the only ones she uses and enjoys every day.

There are 3 subwoofers and one is over 3 cubic feet (sealed Titanic 1200). My new towers will incorporate active subwoofers and will not lose much when we move. Ok, that depends on what happens to my CBTs - they need a subwoofer. So, potentially one difficult future call. ;)
 
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Rick Sykora

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I have taken note of some preference for higher sensitivity drivers. Elsewhere on the forum, many have expressed that same preference in speakers (even if just subjectively!). Since these woofers tend to have higher resonant frequencies, bigger boxes or subwoofers are often needed for deep bass.

In my experience, getting higher SPLs via multiple woofers is another approach that works for me. For most music, I am happy without a subwoofer. Ofc, room size comes into play too. Anyway, circling back to the thread topic, this is the sort of driver that I have sought for an r2 bass module design. So looking for a woofer that is higher impedance, middling sensitivity and low fS. Would love to hear from anyone who has a candidate woofer that fit this app. :cool:

P.S.

Oops, just to add to the challenge as would be buying multiples, so lower cost is a requirement too. Best candidate I own currently are Dayton RS-225s btw. Do not want anything much bigger.
 
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Rick Sykora

Rick Sykora

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If individuals do look at our drivers, the data bass versions are the v1 which have been replaced with more capable driver typologies. For the 21, you can add around 3 dB to all databass results. And for simulations, we have a series of 2 how to videos on our youtube channel to show how to use the Xmax guarantee. That guarantee converts the Xmax stroke rating into a usable and dependable design metric that is hard and fast. Very helpful in tweaking designs.
Helpful how-to's are also found in our Information section which outlines steps that can be taken to get the most accurate data set for systems designs.

Welcome to ASR!

Did you custom design your drivers?
 

Harbottle Audio

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Welcome to ASR!

Did you custom design your drivers?

Thank you for the warm welcome

We build them in house from raw materials, only using the minimal parts needed from over seas.
Our drivers are drawn, designed, mathematic-ed, engineered, machined, formed, shaped, molded, pressed, assembled, and qc'ed over 100 times each by us and no one else.
I am also fanatically thorough and throw cation to the wind at risk if sounding pedantic and patronizing. So my apologies if my reply is annoying.
 

Tangband

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I think the Purifi driver should be replaced. It's too expensive and most people will use subwoofers anyway. So what you're paying for is actually not used.

Popular combinations for the DXT tweeter are Seas ER18RNX and the Wavecor WF152BD06 or WF182BD09. I would in general prefer a woofer that doesn't try to do bass. The ER18RNX will do 80hz at -3dB if put in a closed box...
I personally dont think seas er18rnx is good enough to be better than the best loudspeakers out there . The distortion is very low below 500 Hz for a 6,5 driver, but is a little higher at 1 KHz and this makes it harder to make it sound really good . I used this driver in the HYBRID project so I know the drawbacks well.

There are always compromises in a 2-way speaker thats supposed to be crossed over at 80 Hz .

The SB NBAC 15 or 17 have lower distortion at 1 KHz than seas er18rnx , but the xmax in reality is rather bad so they cant play loud below 100 Hz .

The SB NBAC 15 would probably be perfect if used as a midrange from 200 Hz and above, but then we are talking about a three way speaker .*

* Ditching the purifi drivers , theres money left for a subwoofer in each speaker .
The Dutch&Dutch 8 uses two 8 inches Dayton reference series with Linkwitz transformer correction. Maybe a solution at the back of the speaker ?

Suggestion: The two other drivers at the front would then be SB adc26 with a waveguide, and as midrange the SB NBAC 15.
 
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Harbottle Audio

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I don't want to make a offtop, but can you explain me a differences between Harbottle subwoofers version L1 vs L2 vs L3?

I would love to and I wrote a very good DM for that as I dont want to derail a thread. However the forum software monitoring will not allow me to send you the DM because it says is contains spam or unsavory materials. Feel free to contact me otherwise through other channels if you wish to have a discussion. I am always open for talking.

Edit. I was just informed that I am not allowed to send DMs until I have a dozen posts. As a business I set a very strict standard for engagement and wont post something that may possibly derail a thread or tout my wares or write something that can be perceived as self promotion.
If you would like to discuss detials of my product you can contact me by email or phone, or we can try a DM sent by you and see if it will allow me to respond.
 
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Harbottle Audio

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@Adi777 I did get a green light to post a reply from @BDWoody
We will see how this is received by the masses.
This is exactly what I wrote for the dm.

Hi there.
As a business I exercise a very strict code of conduct and will only contribute to a thread by guiding and informing only. I will never endorse or tout my own wares on a topic that people are working to discuss and assist. And so I will answer your question here. I hope I have gained your respect for that stance.

The differences in performance levels is found in the performance metrics in our website. I realize that this info is incomplete at the moment, but we are working to fully analyze the data and publish complete metrics. It is mega lots of work and keeping up with manufacturing demands takes priority.

The place to start is by reading the whitepaper on LDLC and the associated materials published on the website. This will get you into the mindset of what we consider to be and make up audio output. The cliffsnotes is that output heard = (clean output signal + compression + distortion of all types, of which there are multitudes) to the power of efficiency. I cant find a superscript function in the text, so spelling will have to do.

What I can tell you is this:
All subwoofers use the same underhung motor topology. However the BL and other metrics change and this is seen on the very end at the performance level. Using end use performance as per LDLC is the reason we can get 130 dB in content (John Wick gunfire at 30 Hz) without audible distress from a C18 L1. There is a youtube video of it from our client.
For both 18 and 24 inch models:
The bottom end 5 Hz mark "with authority" means that the bottom end is clean and strain free. This does not mean "flat to 5 Hz", this means competent and as such the harmonics produced will not affect the higher and audible frequencies. This also means that the output at 5 will follow the trajectory of the roll off, and this is very important to know and understand.
The baseline representation for all subs is the enclosure is made from a carbon/baltic composite. The carbon is a structural member, not a finish. The finish is clear satin lacquer and other finishes are available. This composite structure cuts resonance down by around 30%. over wood or paint finishes.
  • The L1 represents the best "bang for buck" at the LDLC level with very clean output but is down on overall output ability.
  • The L2 boosts output ability and increases power. This is not simply "strapping a bigger amp", the motor has to be built for the task and so the motor and driver is different.
  • The L3 takes the enclosure to the maximum and furthest we can take it in the expression of cutting resonance. So we truss the enclosure with carbon, and this results in about 75% reduction of resonance over the same enclosure in paint or wood finish. We then put the motor on steroids and increase the BL by 75% and increase amp capacitance by 50%. The L3 is an exponential leap forward and upward on the fidelity trajectory that we establish with the L1 and 2. So it is not for the faint of heart. They are currently used by video game developers for realistic gunfire audio and a sound studio.

I hope I answered your question well.
If you have any questions please let me know.

Cody.
 

D!sco

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Do it if you like.

My thought is that the added quality (reduced distortion) in a small speaker is easily perceived and measured especially as the amplitude is increased.
I just have no need for (another) midfield two-way. I considered doing it for the sake of experiment but R2 is much more appealing on that front. R1 would likely have more builds by now if it wasn't so economically intimidating.

I don't question the quality of the Purifi driver at all. Like the Elsinore Project's "ULD" model or the limited edition Buchardt A500s, The Purifi is a clear upgrade over other, more budget friendly parts. Those projects/products had attention before with more affordable options to introduce people to it's primary benefits. Elsinore has insanely good phase alignment, A500 is an all-digital work of engineering, both use middling drivers to create a better whole. If the goal of directivity and low distortion can be done at a lower cost, why aren't we?
 
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BDE

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Well, I think the Purifi is too expensive for end customer use, companies will get them with a huge discount.

Question is do we like to have a speaker which works without subwoofer or a design with needs one? Personally, I prefer a 2- or 3-way speaker without the need of an additional subwoofer.

So, beside the already mentioned Seas ER18RNX, SB NBAC I like to add:
TB W5-1685
TB W6-1721
TB w6-789e
Lavoce WAN061.80
Beyma 6NMFW (also too expensive)
Scan Speak 22 W 4534 G00 one of my all-time favorites with superb price performance ratio!
TB W8-1722

BTW: Tang Band offers a new version of its superb 3" dome midrange 75-1558sh and it got already tested! So a Neumann KH 420 like design with a dual DIY waveguide should be possible! :eek:
 
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