AV123 / GR Research X-Voce Speaker Review

[Penelinfi]

All this talk of fever and cows...

 

[Futility]

I believe that when cows start flying....

Careful what you wish for:

 

[Steve Dallas]

I did. He claimed somewhere he had an anechoic chamber. I believe that when cows start flying....

We have several anechoic chambers in Texas... At various universities and defense contractor's facilities. And I am quite sure he has NEVER actually seen one of them, much less used it.

 

[amirm]

You would think for someone producing so many speakers, he would learn how to do ground plane measurements or something like it to test bass. But he is so focused on just what the crossover is doing well above that, that he thinks nothing else matters.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Meant to mention earlier but you may have noticed how pretty Danny’s X-Voces are. Well, they are not production units, and both have hardwood front baffles. Of course, he then shows a CSD measurement with the X-Voce metalwork removed and manages a better measurement than Amir’s stock one did! 

The video also talks to Amir’s towel and says it just dampened the grill. As @Futility recent post shows though, there is still a dip around 180 Hz in Danny’s latest post. Rather than do a proper bass measurement, he simply does an in-room one and then can blame the dip on a room mode. If he did any anechoic measures in the past, they were not likely effective below 200 Hz. Otherwise, they likely would have been comparable to Amir’s Klippel measures.

Finally, he also floats that Amir’s test unit may have had a bad electrolytic cap. Assuming it failed open, it would have almost no effect on the crossover center frequency AND, as I show in post #267, the resulting smaller capacitance would lower the slope of the X-Voce crossover and so would help fill in the dip rather than cause a greater one. Once again, despite Danny’s allusions, crossover design reality altogether negates his claims. 

 

[bconline]

I did a ground plane measurement on my X-Statik. Same bass hump at ~85hz.

 

[beagleman]

A VERY recent reply on Dannys Youtube "explanation" of why this center is great.................

"I have lots of interest in both ASR and Danny at GR Research. Having said that, I went over to ASR to look at the center speaker review, and the owner Amir, gave a very concise account of the issues he had measuring this speaker. Danny I feel you are letting your dislike of him personally, color your replies on this video and to him in Email. I mean, he has a Kippel machine, that is just about the most resolving way to measure known today. Not sure why there is so much animosity towards ASR, as Amir has given you due credit for sure on your Klipsch Upgrades and the XL-S encore kit, QUITE positive reviews. But by acting you do not know his name or his site, seems borderline immature."

I was following this recent video of his, and noticed they are removing comments from ASR people, (Yesterday) and figure this guys will get removed soon also....
So had quite a laugh, and wanted to save it for posterity~!!

 

[audiofooled]

His business model is such that he quite linearly steers you into buying more and more of HIS products, be it his servo subs (if you need any bass), crossover upgrades, tube connectors and what not. It also seems that many of his designs are incomplete unless you fill your room with acoustic treatments and paint it all black.

For these woofers to produce any reasonable bass response they possibly need way bigger vented box, which would leave no space for any open baffle.

 

[mziegler]

For those that may not know what became of the AV123 company all I can say is the web has a long memory. I hear irony in the name Schifter in regard to the issue of fraud.

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If I recall correctly, Schifter screwed DR out of a lot of money.

 

[AdamS]

If I recall correctly, Schifter screwed DR out of a lot of money.

He screwed a lot of people out of a lot of money, allegedly .

 

[amirm]

For those that may not know what became of the AV123 company all I can say is the web has a long memory. I hear irony in the name Schifter in regard to the issue of fraud.

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Thanks. Did some searching. Seems he setup up raffles for charitable causes and a gift. Whoever won, got the gift but he never sent the money to the charitable organization. For this I think they gave him 10 year probation. A couple of years later, they went after him for fraud on investor money or some such thing. I thought for sure they would give him prison sentence. But instead he pleaded to one felony and got 20 years probation! On the positive front, he was apparently working to pay back people.

 

[AdamS]

Thanks. Did some searching. Seems he setup up raffles for charitable causes and a gift. Whoever won, got the gift but he never sent the money to the charitable organization. For this I think they gave him 10 year probation. A couple of years later, they went after him for fraud on investor money or some such thing. I thought for sure they would give him prison sentence. But instead he pleaded to one felony and got 20 years probation! On the positive front, he was apparently working to pay back people.

He would also take preorder payments for some very expensive products, and sometimes the product never came to market, or took years. With ridiculous excuses along the way. I know he screwed suppliers like cabinet makers in South America out of huge somes of money, defaulting on credit I'm assuming. AV123 was essentially a ponzi scheme funding the owners lavish lifestyle, came crashing down. Of course this is all allegedly.

 

[Ze Frog]

Man this is pretty damning. Even my very first D.I.Y build was likely far better than this. Others that I have measured since absolutely embarrass this, and from a guy who claims to be the authority as well.

This is the problem though, these people aren't reviewers or engineers, just influencers. They all have eachothers backs though, despite silly calling out videos like when Jay's Iyagi called him out, and then proceeded to really get his nose up his arse. These people have no shame or dignity, and sadly people are easily manipulated. Just look at all the trash adverts on YouTube, fake science etc, people absolutely lap it up. I really worry about our species sometimes, I refuse to believe we are the supposed most intelligent in all the galaxies, at least I pray we aren't.

 

[mziegler]

He screwed a lot of people out of a lot of money, allegedly .

Nothing alleged. He pleaded guilty. Besides the theft of raffle money and investors, of course he stiffed many people working with him, like Mark Seaton. I'm pretty sure he spent some time in jail after his arrest. I'm fuzzy about the details, and I can't be bothered to reread the thread at AVS. He is back in the busines -- I saw him at THE Show in Newport years ago. He and Danny were a good pair although, to be fair, DR has never been accused of theft.

 

[Rick Sykora]

If you look at Danny's business, it is primarily one of promoting products to those who think they are getting high-end audio without the high-end price tag. If you consider standard marketing 4Ps, he relies heavily on promotion. He has been doing the influencer gig for a long time and likely will keep doing as long as he makes enough money. The DIY speaker business is a small market and it continues to contract. The larger driver suppliers are readily able to offer more options at better values than GR can.

Without Danny's constant promotion, GR (like AV123) readily becomes a footnote in audio history as the products lack true sustainable differentiation. Will credit him with being a great promoter and the internet likely gave GR a new outlet for his message, but he appears ill-prepared to respond to online push back. For that matter, GR is so dependent on Danny, if he gets sidelined or worse, the business would rapidly fade away. I suggest our efforts should focus more on helping his customers and less on Danny himself.

 

[DanTheMan]

@Rick Sykora, I just checked in on that oddio circle thread. You are cracking me up! I don’t think he realizes you are demonstrating that he is lying in that thread. I love it. Keep up the good work.

 

[Rick Sykora]

@Rick Sykora, I just checked in on that oddio circle thread. You are cracking me up! I don’t think he realizes you are demonstrating that he is lying in that thread. I love it. Keep up the good work.

As I mentioned, my intent is to help his customers. Whether Danny is lying, incorrect or mistaken is secondary.

 

[Todd68]

I built a pair of NX Oticas and I'm totally satisfied with the sound quality and building them was fun and rewarding. I don't feel the need to EQ them like other speakers I've owned, they sound very balanced and accurate. I don't have GR subs though I have excellent results with a pair of 15" Dayton Ultimax subs for low bass. So here's probably the only positive remark in this thread. I prefer the presentation of music a lot over Kef R3 with subs I tried. Other models I owned other than NHT 3.3 probably not respected here.

 

[Rick Sykora]

I built a pair of NX Oticas and I'm totally satisfied with the sound quality and building them was fun and rewarding. I don't feel the need to EQ them like other speakers I've owned, they sound very balanced and accurate. I don't have GR subs though I have excellent results with a pair of 15" Dayton Ultimax subs for low bass. So here's probably the only positive remark in this thread. I prefer the presentation of music a lot over Kef R3 with subs I tried. Other models I owned other than NHT 3.3 probably not respected here.

Pleased you are happy and is entirely feasible that Danny did a better job on the NX-Otica. The servo subs are not his design and the OB ones may be fine too. However, proper measurements are straightforward science and are needed for speaker design. Ultimax subs are designed and measured for their targeted purpose. If measurements are denied, it is very difficult to build a speaker accurately and consistently.

As for not liking other speakers, this is simply explained by our hearing having a preferred sound signature. Many like some things that are not technically accurate (like guitar distortion). However, we have studies that show what people generally prefer and how that compares to speakers that measure with certain characteristics. This is even with the acknowledgement that our ears and brains are often quite different. Individuals are biased and often think everyone else is just like them. So we need science to help us get beyond individual opinion.

In the end, the measurements may not capture everything, but without them we are otherwise entirely left to opinion. Without controlled studies, opinions are too readily swayed by biases. So, yes we fall back to measurements as the best way to compare speakers. Some GR speakers have measured well and this has been acknowledged here. The particular review speaker did not measure well and so whether a GR brand or a different one (a recent JBL comes to mind), we judge them based on the results. While some measurement problems are more audible than others, the X-Voce clearly has one that is audible and has been replicated by others. So, while opinion may be interesting, measurements are much more reliable.

 

[Deleted member 21114]

I don't have GR subs though I have excellent results with a pair of 15" Dayton Ultimax subs for low bass.

Those subs look like they could crush skulls! Have you tried moving them to asymmetric positions? Maybe one in a front corner and one midway along a wall. It doesn't look as cool but you might get smoother bass.