Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[GXAlan]

I’m not asking if x or y is audible. I’m not sure I understand your post and what does it have to do with me. What would I personally do with an E1DA and what would that prove? I don’t have an 3800H to test and if I understand correctly @amirm uses an Audio Precision Analyzer, which is completely different.

You were asking what Amir thought the spread of SINAD would be if he tested 100 units of the AVR-X3800H. It’s a great question. Fundamentally there is no way for you or me to know if our store bought X is going to perform the way it should based upon other reviews/measurements.

If that is important to you, that’s where getting your own test gear is helpful. The APx and E1DA are very different but both are precision instruments. The value of having this is that
A) changes in your environment like LED ceiling lights, other electrical devices, and even how you layout the cables in comparison to AC power cables all result in detectable and measurable differences. These are small but does show you why it’s so tricky to get measurements consistently.
B) Within a test setup, run to run variability is vanishingly small. If you leave the cables as is and come back another day, the numbers will be similar.

In my limited experience, I have seen greater variability with my Topping gear compared to what has been measured here than I have seen from mainstream audiophile gear. In other words, I generally can match the measurements that I see published for Denon, Marantz, Sony, and Yamaha gear. I get much worse results with the Topping gear. Is it my test setup? Or is it variability between products in production (your question), I cannot answer.

What I am saying is that if you are asking the question if 100 units will measure the same or not, you should be asking yourself: “is this next audio gadget that I have purchased better/worse/equal to expected performance?” After all, it doesn’t make sense to question the reliability of Amir’s testing of a single specimen to an off the shelf purchase if you don’t hold the same skepticism for your own purchases. That’s where making an investment in your own measurement tools is helpful.

 

[Spocko]

I can think of 2 possibilities contributing to the 3800H drop in performance:

1. Engineering by luck - meaning it's pure happenstance that the 3700H did so well as it had less to do with superior engineering/testing/processes and more to do with the "stars aligning" and for the 3800H, the stars simply didn't align.
2. The team and resources used to design/test the last generation are gone due to the private equity acquisition so this short staffed team is just throwing together newer parts and hoping for the best. If the 3800H sells well, they will be unlikely to do anything differently moving forward.

 

[Dj7675]

I can think of 2 possibilities contributing to the 3800H drop in performance:

1. Engineering by luck - meaning it's pure happenstance that the 3700H did so well as it had less to do with superior engineering/testing/processes and more to do with the "stars aligning" and for the 3800H, the stars simply didn't align.
2. The team and resources used to design/test the last generation are gone due to the private equity acquisition so this short staffed team is just throwing together newer parts and hoping for the best. If the 3800H sells well, they will be unlikely to do anything differently moving forward.

Or ..
3. Top performance is now reserved for flagship models. In the past, performance of the 3xxx/4xxx/6xxx/8500(and probably a110) all had similar performance. This could be a conscious choice on their part to force people to spend more for those that value performance. I would hope not, but not out of the realm of possibility.

 

[amirm]

Staying in the realm of instrumented testing, I just wonder what you base your confidence on?

It's based on testing second samples many times and the fact that these products don't have many degrees of freedom. And proof point of Denon getting results close to mine. If we were talking about mechanical devices or designs with a lot of analog tweaks, that would be different.

If course there would be outliers and there are no guarantees here. But such is life in general. Maybe one day every audio product comes with a full measurement result post assembly....

 

[amirm]

The team and resources used to design/test the last generation are gone due to the private equity acquisition so this short staffed team is just throwing together newer parts and hoping for the best. If the 3800H sells well, they will be unlikely to do anything differently moving forward.

The design skills to produce this product is similar to doing so with a higher performance dac chip so I don't think this is a factor.

 

[minus3dB]

He simply does not understand what they word subjective means.

Subjective means what you THINK< FEEL or Your OPINION on how it sounds.
Audibility is a measure OF what human ears can hear.

I think he does understand what it means, certainly within the context of the audibility of different levels of SINAD. There is more than one meaning of the word because it can be used in different contexts. There are probably no two members of ASR whose audiograms are identical. That's because their brains are not identical nor are acoustical properties of their ear canals and sensors. In this context what matters is what the individual listener perceives, not what the objective parameters of the sound field are at his ears at any given instant. There would probably not be a field of perceptual science if there were no subjectivity in how the brain of any given human, mammal, etc., interprets external stimuli.

 

[minus3dB]

A hearing test is a measurement, the standards of a hearingtest will help determine the quality of one's hearing which is measured. Those standards imply objectivity. The phenomenon of false positives is included in these standards. No standards, no use of any measurement. (No measurements no ASR)

But what is the frame of reference? It's not whether a sound occurred or not or whether hearing tests can detect differences in hearing. It's how the listener perceived whatever sound may or may not have been present. The auditory canals, nerves and brains of individuals are not identical, nor is the perceptive performance of any individual listener always the same from one time to another. Don't you think the state of mind of a listener will affect how he perceives a sound?

 

[minus3dB]

If there are a few of products significantly differ from the others (more than margin of error) i would really question their engineering process.

More specifically, their production and production engineering processes. Here we are talking about the design process which includes sourcing DACs. What if TI was the lowest risk source in terms of maintaining a long term, consistent flow of product to D&M in the volumes D&M require?

 

[markk]

I too was disappointed in the performance of this unit. Getting back into audio and HT after a number of years off, was looking for an "above average" midrange AVR. Was hoping it would be engineered better. Can I really hear the difference in SINAD? Very doubtful. But that's not really the point. The point is that it is more poorly engineered than the prior generation. A step backwards.

Long ago, I spent quite a bit of time posting distortion measurements on different loudspeaker drivers. I also got the, "you can't really hear these differences." But that's not the point. Say Scan or Seas decides to take out some copper or shorting rings out of a new motor, crank up the price significantly, and say, well, it doesn't audibly matter in response to worse distortion numbers. It's still poor engineering and should be called out as such.

What's a bit sad is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of competition. It looks like most of the AVRs in this price range perform with mediocrity. Maybe the 3700 was a fluke and receivers in this price range are all sort of mediocre. I mean, if it were easy, wouldn't Topping already have a better version...?

Trying not to spend 3.5-7k on an AVR. But, maybe it can't be engineered reliably at $2k...

 

[birdog1960]

Market forces will intervene. If a $2k receiver doesn't massively exceed a $500 one, then the buying public will decide. Especially at these price points. Is it fair to assume Marantz mid level has also declined? also, has Yamaha regressed? I bought an Aventage before Denon but sent it back because it was massive and didn't fit in my cabinet. https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/yamaha-rx-a6a Specs looked good a couple years ago. yes, over $2k but inflation or profiteering?

 

[carlosmante]

The review was never in whole about SINAD, it simply highlighted the engineering had regressed. No ‘red herring’ here only a clear understanding some people have purchased this unit and don’t like to read negative facts about their new pride and joy.

FYI ‘audibility’ is subjective, SINAD is objective, I’ll take objective over an unqualified opinion all day long.

‘audibility’ is subjective?????. Audible or "audibility" is Objetive.

 

[Rhimes]

I've pre-ordered, but it's not yet released here in Australia. I managed to pre-order for about $2,600 AUD. I'm moving up from a Aventage RX-A2010, both about 10 years old ( which I imagine is worse than the RA-V6A on the chart at 71 SINAD), coupled with an Emotiva XPA-5.

While the results are disappointingly lower than the previous generation (v1, maybe not the current x3700h V2), I don't think i'm going to cancel my order.

The result puts it above the Emotiva XMC-2(AUD $4.5k, HDMI 2.0b, no amps) NAD 777 V3(AUD $3.8k, HDMI 2.0a, 7 channel) and the JBL SDR-35(circa AUD$15k, HDMI 2.0, 7 channel amp). Given all it crams in for the price in this inflationary market, this feels like a balancing act on design for something I might not even be able to pick up. I did the Kippel test someone earlier in the thread posted and landed at -18db on my DT770 pro headphones/Xonar Essence using music(a couple -21db results before landing at -18db).

Ok, it' doesn't have Dirac yet, but based on it's capabilities, inputs, flexibility, I still think it's a good purchase for me. Take my opinion with a grain of salt? Maybe I'm subconsciously still trying to justify my purchase decision... and then my soon to be purchased Atmos speakers to SWMBO.

If someone else can think of an equivalent product for 7.2.4 at sub $1700 USD(about what I paid), please let me know! A6A is about AUD $1300 more(for less?), RZ50 about $100 less (but clicky apparently, still not recommended by Amir, and with some other issues?)

 

[amirm]

‘audibility’ is subjective?????. Audible or "audibility" is Objetive.

How so? I ask you if you hear xyz distortion. You can't but don't want to be embarrassed if there is some and say yes. How is this objective and reliable fact like measurements are?

I think you all are getting confused with conclusions we draw from listening tests thinking that is objective results. But it just isn't. We can have confidence in the total some but the study is always subjective.

 

[birdog1960]

How so? I ask you if you hear xyz distortion. You can't but don't want to be embarrassed if there is some and say yes. How is this objective and reliable fact like measurements are?

I think you all are getting confused with conclusions we draw from listening tests thinking that is objective results. But it just isn't. We can have confidence in the total some but the study is always subjective.

I don't think it's embarrassment. It's "if we can't hear it, it's not important". if I can diagnose someone at stage 3 cancer versus stage 4 and their life expectancy is the same for both, should I expend scarce resources to that end?

 

[MCORN]

I don't think it's embarrassment. It's "if we can't hear it, it's not important". if I can diagnose someone at stage 3 cancer versus stage 4 and their life expectancy is the same for both, should I expend scarce resources to that end?

 

[Webninja]

I don't think it's embarrassment. It's "if we can't hear it, it's not important". if I can diagnose someone at stage 3 cancer versus stage 4 and their life expectancy is the same for both, should I expend scarce resources to that end?

That was a terrible example especially for those that have experienced cancer. I’m sure you could come up with something better to prove your point.

 

[delta76]

Or ..
3. Top performance is now reserved for flagship models. In the past, performance of the 3xxx/4xxx/6xxx/8500(and probably a110) all had similar performance. This could be a conscious choice on their part to force people to spend more for those that value performance. I would hope not, but not out of the realm of possibility.

the differentiator is features, not measurements. Advertising the x4xxx has Auro3d, x6xxx has more channels processing/amplification and made in Japan is way more effective than saying it has SINAD of 100 while x3xxx has only SINAD of 90

 

[MCORN]

the differentiator is features, not measurements. Advertising the x4xxx has Auro3d, x6xxx has more channels processing/amplification and made in Japan is way more effective than saying it has SINAD of 100 while x3xxx has only SINAD of 90

To who, 'What Hifi' readership

 

[Vincentponcet]

I created a spreadsheet to calculate pre out voltage required for the targeted output power (W), for example 1.5 V will get you 223 W if your amp's gain is 29 dB, or 177 W if the amp's gain is 28 dB. If I remember right your Hypex amp's gain is 27.8 dB so you probably will get about 170 W with pre out voltage of 1.5 V. According to measurements, SINAD of the X3700H that has the AKM DAC IC should be close to 100 dB, that is 0.001% THD+N.

Your 94 dB sensitive speaker whether it's nominal impedance is 8 ohms or 4 ohms, can hit reference level from 3 meters with less than 150 W, assuming 3 dB of room gain. I suspect your volume will be well below -10 when you listen to music. In terms of SINAD, preamp mode or not will not likely make any difference in your application.

Note: I cannot guarantee 100% accuracy of my spreadsheet. If you or anyone finds any errors in it, please let me know and I will make the necessary corrections.

Blue - Gain in dB
Red - Power output in Watts

View attachment 240319

So Denon output is at 1.1V, with a 25db amp, that's only 48W ? Woo, surprising.

 

[ABall]

I created a spreadsheet to calculate pre out voltage required for the targeted output power (W), for example 1.5 V will get you 223 W if your amp's gain is 29 dB, or 177 W if the amp's gain is 28 dB. If I remember right your Hypex amp's gain is 27.8 dB so you probably will get about 170 W with pre out voltage of 1.5 V. According to measurements, SINAD of the X3700H that has the AKM DAC IC should be close to 100 dB, that is 0.001% THD+N.

Your 94 dB sensitive speaker whether it's nominal impedance is 8 ohms or 4 ohms, can hit reference level from 3 meters with less than 150 W, assuming 3 dB of room gain. I suspect your volume will be well below -10 when you listen to music. In terms of SINAD, preamp mode or not will not likely make any difference in your application.

Note: I cannot guarantee 100% accuracy of my spreadsheet. If you or anyone finds any errors in it, please let me know and I will make the necessary corrections.

Blue - Gain in dB
Red - Power output in Watts

View attachment 240319

Thanks Peng, so i think you are saying that only if the room/speakers require more power than the 3800h can provide will preamp mode be better and only then if the volume level is very loud?