Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Dj7675]

Why on earth would they? It's far more profitable for the Toppings of the world to keep you guys on the Sinad upgraditis path than to make something as cost intensive and service/warranty oriented as an avr.DAC's are cheap/simple to make compared to an avr,where you have to issue new firmware etc.Truth is avrs are just fine for those who don't worry about inaudible sinad differences.Pick your channel amount, preferred room eq and enough power for your listening habits/room size and be done with it!

“You guys”? You seem to have a misconception about the membership here. I suppose some may run out and replace a device based on a few dB increase in SINAD but I do not get that impression at all after being here quite a while. In fact, it is quite a diverse group here in regards to opinions on audibility of such things. Without such bench tests there is a lot we would not know that are important such as the actual power these receivers produce, if they can handle 4ohm tests, and what their voltage outputs are to help select appropriate amps. No need to be hostile towards bench tests as they are just information users can use as they see fit.

 

[Sieniek]

Agreed. Still makes me wonder, though, why there isn't a avr preprocessor that measures very well. Or a high end branch from Denon or Sony etc that produces a few high performance products like AMG for mercedes.

Maybe such a preprocessor like Arcam AV860 measures well. It hasn't been measured over here but that's my idea because AV40 processor measured better than the rest of AV receivers from the same line so maybe that's the same case with AV860 being better than AVR850 which in the end measured well...not that bad, 98 or 99 SINAD if I remember correctly.

It would be great if someone could send AV860 to @amirm to see how are the results.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

I don't know why so many seem surprised by the test results. I have actually predicted in one of my posts that the degradation could be in the high 80's. That was solely based on the PCM5102A DAC IC's lower SINAD than the AK4458. Logic and math don't lie!

The difference is a whopping 14 to 15 dB difference as shown by the datasheets. The measured 10 dB difference is actually good news relatively speaking and should be expected as well because the prior models were limited by the volume control IC and could not take full advantage of the 107 dB SINAD that the AK4458 offers anyway.

I am more disappointed with the higher IMD, but overall if we compare the two in a tightly controlled DBT, I would bet 10:1 less than 10% of the audience would be able to tell a difference. 0.05% THD+N, 20-20 kHz is still excellent for most people included those with trained ears and has minimal hearing loss lol.. I thought @Brian6751 would agree might agree with me.

For use as an AVR, this is the graph that really counts, and if you compare it with the X3700H's you can see why I do not believe one can tell a difference between it and the X3800H, regardless of the DAC chip difference.

No doubt all you said is true, and a big THANK YOU to @amirm for his invaluable contributions and holding companies accountable. However, the million dollar question here is if it’s worth paying more over the previous generation and getting less. Or maybe it’s more rewarding to wait and jump ship to RZ70.

I actually opened my box last night, and the sound was okay since my power amp is very sensitive at 1.25V. At volume levels up to 72 there was not much difference, but the sound is not transparent like the AKM 3700, and setting it up was very awful and buggy. Selecting preamp mode grayed out height speakers and only allowed Dolby. I updated the firmware and halfway through it gave a network error and asked to be disconnected from the outlet! After a hard reset everything worked fine, and height speakers were available. I’m still on the fence whether to keep it or return it and wait for something better.

 

[Vacceo]

The reason to upgrade is on the HDMI 2.1 board and that may not even be as stable as it should.

 

[FrantzM]

FYI - 8 channel SOTA performance is available by combining a Topping D70 DAC with a Buckeye 8 x Hypex NC252MP, all for US$2,350 total.

Topping DM7 8-Channel DAC Review

The Japanese standards for front panel manufacturing make this look like amateur hour. I guess the machining of the switch hole is difficult as compared to casting a high accuracy plastic panel with a bazzilion holes in a front panel assembly and with mounts for the switching assemblies...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Buckeye Amps

Buckeye Amps utilizes the most advanced audio amplifier technologies available. Authorized seller for Hypex and Purifi Class D amplifiers. Based in the US. Free shipping and worldwide service!

www.buckeyeamp.com

no advanced codecs though...

Peace.

 

[RichT]

Hello Amir, thanks for fitting in this excellent review. With all of the hype and expectations, I've very surprised at these test results. Where did value for us buyers go? Regards

 

[beren777]

Not surprised based on the DAC IC change. As many have said, not sure people could actually tell a difference in a blind A/B test.

Remember any boutique manufacturer can make a DAC that measures 120dB SINAD. It takes an engineer to get SINAD to borderline audible differences.

I still have my "3700H" with the PCM DAC ICs and I still believe Denon should have given it an amended model number. I also still use it on a daily basis and I've been satisfied with it.

Dirac seems the main reason to buy a 3800, but if the license is tied to the individual unit, I'll probably wait a few years. And by then my hearing may have degraded to the point that it'll matter even less.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Can the x3800h disconnect selected channels like the 8500 can? Or can is it all or nothing using the preamp mode to disconnect all channels?

It does:

 

[juliangst]

I hope he’ll gets his hands on the new Marantz AV receivers too. They looks awesome, will get DLBM support and have pre outs.
if they measure well enough they might be worth it for stereo use alone

 

[Vacceo]

Remember any boutique manufacturer can make a DAC that measures 120dB SINAD. It takes an engineer to get SINAD to borderline audible differences.

What is not very acceptable is releasing a product worse engineered than your own previous generation.

Denon and Anthem have proved that it can be done better than this AVR.

 

[delta76]

What is not very acceptable is releasing a product worse engineered than your own previous generation.

Denon and Anthem have proved that it can be done better than this AVR.

I somewhat disagree. AVR is a very complex product that engineers have to make compromises. whether "acceptable" or not is up to the market to decide (hint: 90% if not more people do not care about SINAD, features, price and brand would triumph anything else)

 

[Vacceo]

I somewhat disagree. AVR is a very complex product that engineers have to make compromises. whether "acceptable" or not is up to the market to decide (hint: 90% if not more people do not care about SINAD, features, price and brand would triumph anything else)

Building worse than yourself? Sorry, but no.

 

[GXAlan]

The real danger is that this product does well, and it convinces the new management to lower their benchmark going forward.

 

[AndreaT]

HI Andrea,

FYI - 8 channel SOTA performance is available by combining a Topping D70 DAC with a Buckeye 8 x Hypex NC252MP, all for US$2,350 total.

Topping DM7 8-Channel DAC Review

The Japanese standards for front panel manufacturing make this look like amateur hour. I guess the machining of the switch hole is difficult as compared to casting a high accuracy plastic panel with a bazzilion holes in a front panel assembly and with mounts for the switching assemblies...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Buckeye Amps

Buckeye Amps utilizes the most advanced audio amplifier technologies available. Authorized seller for Hypex and Purifi Class D amplifiers. Based in the US. Free shipping and worldwide service!

www.buckeyeamp.com

Hi! Yes, very good combo!

 

[hmt]

What is not very acceptable is releasing a product worse engineered than your own previous generation.

Denon and Anthem have proved that it can be done better than this AVR.

They have good reasons. The older DACS were not readily available in the supply chain. Yes, you could stamp with your feet and complain about some measurement with little relevance.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

Definitely a bit disappointing compared to previously measured models for sure.

Some pic's;

Unsure which TI DAC chip this uses;

Denon AVR-X3800H

9.4-channel home theater receiver with Dolby Atmos®, Bluetooth®, Apple AirPlay® 2, and Amazon Alexa compatibility

www.crutchfield.com

Very good of you @amirm to squeeze this review in while dealing with the house, cheers.


JSmith

This is from Denon/Marantz support: "The AV7706 uses 7 PCM5102APWR stereo DACs and the AVC-X3800H uses 8 PCM5102APWR stereo DACs"

 

[mctron]

Sure, a second hand computer (say) with HDMI out and the appropriate software loaded would also be required. Maybe another $1k-$1.5k, but still insane value with massive functionality and performance when compared to some of the HiFi jewellery being espoused by so called "up market" manufacturers.

Depends on what you value, bells and whistles or good technology producing good sound. Both have their place. My preference would be the latter.

Well I would not exactly use the term audio jewelry for a mass market Denon AVR. And what some may call bells and whistles others might call the convenience of having everything on one package with reasonably plug and play software (trading a few hundred $ for a few db in sinad). But yes there is a setup for everyone's separate needs and wants.

 

[Deleted member 19122]

“You guys”? You seem to have a misconception about the membership here. I suppose some may run out and replace a device based on a few dB increase in SINAD but I do not get that impression at all after being here quite a while. In fact, it is quite a diverse group here in regards to opinions on audibility of such things. Without such bench tests there is a lot we would not know that are important such as the actual power these receivers produce, if they can handle 4ohm tests, and what their voltage outputs are to help select appropriate amps. No need to be hostile towards bench tests as they are just information users can use as they see fit.

Spare me the lecture,I was obviously referring to the poster that I quoted.I wouldn't be here if I didn't value the measurements.My point being that the difference between this Denon and the one before in sinad is not audible so why would anyone base their buying decisions on sinad?And my point holds for Topping etc,they churn out dacs for a reason,they are an insanely profitable/easier task than getting into the avr market.

 

[Vacceo]

They have good reasons. The older DACS were not readily available in the supply chain. Yes, you could stamp with your feet and complain about some measurement with little relevance.

I could also not care about a product with HDMI 2.1 issues.

 

[buz]

Thanks a lot for the review amir - definitely not going to spend the 600 extra for a 3800h now.

Still doubting the 3700h, though. Any other options (I want 5.2 for 4 R3 and a R2c but would settle for 5.1, 4k60 is enough).