Waxx
Major Contributor
It's true that Naim is very overrated and priced, and since longtime. I never bothered to really look close to it, because even my dad (an electronic engineer) said that already in the 1980's, and it only got worse...
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Dealers leaving Naim
- Thread starter Pearson1977
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Pearson1977
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- #22
For the price Naim are the best product in Europe or North America. I had the opportunity to compare some (old and new versions) with much cheaper/equipment, no discussion.
Whiskey the Cat
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Naim prices for anything other than the base components like Muso and Uniti, are very much higher in North America than they are in the UK. That puts them in a very price non-competitive position with respect to NA manufacturers. I believe the plan at Naim is to price locally so that the factory is busy and then price overseas at “Veblen” levels. As well as several Naim components, I own Benchmark, Moon, and others. No way are Naim the best product for the price in NA.
Absolutely apart from their speakers, and their new amp/streamer which wasn’t that fantastic.
Naim Uniti Atom Review (Streamer & Amp)
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Naim Uniti Atom streamer, DAC and integrated amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $3,799. The overall industry design is attractive and has a high-end look to it. Alas, every part of the unit has an ultra sharp edge from...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Here are three from a few years older amplifiers than the above mentionned Naim NAP-250 :
Very funny. Compared to what exactly (let's laugh too)?
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Pearson1977
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We have our favourites, but in the end it's all about what sound you like. I don't like Mcintosh. Their products are ugly and it's almost like a light show on the front with vu meters. Who cares to look at it? Sound quality and price simply do not match. There is more to the eyes than to the ears.
Probably they had lots of cash to burn. The complex financial structures and international nature of these companies provide good cover. Although some improvement to the brands will inevitably occur, they're often disproportionate to the funds invested.
It definitely is a distinct, love it or hate it look, which makes sense. They don’t need to be the popular choice, just popular enough to make money and be profitable so as not to go into debt.
That said, the performance is good.
Yeah. I think private equity is like any other business. You have wins and failures with the failures being a lot more obvious/discussed. The wins don’t get bragged about since the wealthy just got wealthier. It’s no different than venture capitalists or even DARPA. Even if you have 90% failure, the 10% success more than pays for itself. So even though it is easy and accurate to say that your last sentence (“often disproportionate”), in the long run and over all the companies, there definitely are some “home runs.”
I agree and these are usually the ones that are not available to you or me. If they come to you for capital then you better stay away.
Not sure what you're trying to say here.
I did not say Naim were good or the best with reactive loads. I specifically said they were better than the Japanese competition from lower tier Panasonic, Sony, JVC.
The amps you have linked to are from manufacturers pretty much unknown in the UK. Except Denon, and I'd always advise buy a Denon over a Naim.
?Not sure what you're trying to say here.
I did not say Naim were good or the best with reactive loads. I specifically said they were better than the Japanese competition from lower tier Panasonic, Sony, JVC.
The amps you have linked to are from manufacturers pretty much unknown in the UK. Except Denon, and I'd always advise buy a Denon over a Naim.
Your wrote in post #11 that "the Naim power amps handled tough loads better", I replied that objective measurements showed that on the contrary Naim power amps often had more difficulties to handle reactive loads. You replied in post #17 that according to you, "Naim were, and still are, sub-optimal in that regard" but "were still better at it than much of the competition at the time". I replied to that that "measurements I've seen imply instead that much of the competition at the time performed better on complex reactive loads than most Naim amps". You asked for an example. I gave three.
There is no hidden meaning behind my words.
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My quote in full:
''a lot of that budget Japanese equipment of the late 1970s on, skimped on the power supplies (i,e the expensive bit) and the Naim power amps handled tough loads better''
I.e better than the budget Japanese equipment - not better than anything else on the market.
You missed an important qualifier which I put there for a reason.
Private equity seems better at normal goods than Veblen goods. They get the price maximization, but just don't have the brand support mentality to sustain Veblen goods. You have to be sort of irrationally attached to brand-burnishing in a way that bean counters don't get.
Now Bernard Arnault, he gets Veblen goods. But I don't think I've bought anything from his companies other than possible champagne (Moet, not Dom Perignon).
Now Bernard Arnault, he gets Veblen goods. But I don't think I've bought anything from his companies other than possible champagne (Moet, not Dom Perignon).
Distinct looks, manages to give owners a continuous life long upgrade anxiety and IMO the most important factor is the so called Naim sound. I owned a couple of Naims in the past. I can describe the sound as dark and smooth. Although they'll deny it, there's almost certainly added coloration to their sound like most other popular brands.
Playing some three dimensional chess…
If you look at Naim, they have a lot of mains noise
Naim Uniti Atom Review (Streamer & Amp)
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Naim Uniti Atom streamer, DAC and integrated amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $3,799. The overall industry design is attractive and has a high-end look to it. Alas, every part of the unit has an ultra sharp edge from...
www.audiosciencereview.com
You can imagine the power supply upgrades might actually provide audible improvements from the stock design if the standalone products perform somewhat similarly... It’s not that the external power supply is good — but it is better than the baseline.
My own experience with the “kit” Luxman phono amp. It shipped with some very basic op-amps and has a manual telling you to swap the op amps, and even tells you which ones to swap to.
This was necessary for low output moving coil phono playback. There was speculation why they didn’t just ship with better op amps, and the conclusion was that they were *that* tight on the cost cutting *or* they wanted you to see how tweaking could make a difference, which would make you want to upgrade to the next line up.
Luxman LXV-OT10 Phono Equalizer Amplifier Review and Measurements
Luxman LXV-OT10 Phono Equalizer Amplifier Review/Measurements Let's take an audio company with nearly 100 years of history. That's Luxman, which has been around since 1925. Now take one of the oldest audiophile magazines in Japan. That's stereo, which was first published in 1963 -- just...
audiosciencereview.com
And the follow up with op amp rolling.
Measured effect of op-amp rolling on a phono equalizer input-shorted noise
Op-amp rolling the stereo x LUXMAN LXV-OT10 Background Last month, I put together a Luxman "kit" phono equalizer and posted the measurements. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/luxman-lxv-ot10-phono-equalizer-amplifier-review-and-measurements.48055/ TLDR? The Luxman...
audiosciencereview.com
I didn't miss your qualifier. It's just that some Naim amplifiers cannot handle tough loads irrespective of any qualifier or competition with which they are compared to, as demonstrated by the example of the Naim NAP 250 I posted a third party measurement above. With 60 Hz signal on loads down to 2 ohms with or without a +60° phase shift between voltage and current, tough loads by any standard, the output voltage produced by the NAP 250 heavily sag on the reactive loads compared to the purely resistive loads, even with a as high as 8 ohms load resistive part.
Even inexpensive old Japanese integrated amplifiers can behave much better on such a stringent test, as exemplified below :
The fact that Naim amplifiers generally handled and still handle tough loads better remains to be proven. A case to case assessment of each amplifier model with proper measurements is the only way to tell if each and every amplifier can handle tough loads or not, but the above mentioned example of the NAP-250 shows that no generalization can be stated.
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I'm surprised by the performance of that Pioneer amp.
But fair enough, you've made a good point
Such a stringent measurement often shows surprises!
In France, we are fortunate enough that Etienne Lémery, a famous and well-respected test engineer who sadly passed away a few years ago, made popular that kind of test, which he considered one of the most important for assessing power amplifiers, because large phase angles between voltage and current are encountered precisely around the tuned frequency of sealed or vented speakers, that is to say in the bass region, where power is most needed.
In France, we are fortunate enough that Etienne Lémery, a famous and well-respected test engineer who sadly passed away a few years ago, made popular that kind of test, which he considered one of the most important for assessing power amplifiers, because large phase angles between voltage and current are encountered precisely around the tuned frequency of sealed or vented speakers, that is to say in the bass region, where power is most needed.
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