Dealers leaving Naim

[OCA]

The triumph of marketing over performance is pretty much the definition of snake oil.

Actually this makes sense the way you described it.

 

[sergeauckland]

I have. They didn't expect BBC streaming capabilities to suddenly stop working given Radio 3 was a significant part of their listening. There's a good argument that it was actually the BBC's fault as the test stream had the same codec but a different protocol to the one they eventually released, and Naim (along with most of the rest of the streamer industry) couldn't handle the new protocol. I think Naim got there eventually. There were other significant frustrations with firmware issues, but the BBC thing was a deal breaker.

Especially when LMS manages to bring out a new version each time the BBC have changed their protocol. Never lost the BBC for more than a couple of days at most. It's clear to me that the streamer industry isn't interested in maintaining their legacy products whilst the LMS volunteers have kept updating the software for years and years.

S

 

[OCA]

I can't think of any two brands more overrated than Focal and Naim.

Focal builds dozens-of-kilobuck domestic speakers that are mediocre at best, and I know of very few actually serious studio users with their pro monitor line (I've used them in other studios - and owned a couple of different sets - and consider them to be some of the worst speakers I've ever used in that regard).

I'm unsurprised the warranty stuff took a nosedive as their support in the US has pretty much always been awful.

Sounds like you are a professional so I respect your views but did you ever listen to a Sopra or a Grand Utopia? In the right sized room and with the right juice (they are very needy), they sound like heaven. Maybe I haven't heard enough great speakers but it wouldn't make sense if with an R&D budget 100 times their next competitor, they came up regularly with faulty designs.

 

[rank]

There's a UK site that goes into *why* their dated single (not split) +24VDC rail circuit could respond to larger power supplies. Of course, adding another box and cabling rather than putting the regulators right next to the gain blocks where they're needed, makes for part of the never ending upgrade ladder as one has to buy extra (expensive) tiers on their dedicated 'Fraim' racking/shelving system. UK dealers make their living doing this

You are well informed. I had the opportunity to compare 2 of their CD players with an entry-level Philips. Neither had the slightest bass. Which I absolutely cannot explain (any idea ?).
One bought second-hand, the other new. But before I came, none of the buyers had noticed anything wrong !

 

[DSJR]

Sounds like a very elaborate rip off! But nobody can deny the sound is the bestView attachment 385522!
I was always fond of British sense of Humor!

To me then, in the 'musical bolt-up' 70s and in the harder toned 80s, the 'sound' was the best as *everything else* sounded different and thereby worse to us then... Some UK dealers are still on the tour bus, but others like me, discovered other products, starting with the flawed but effective Linn LK1/2, the Krell amps and in my case, the endearing Nakamichi Threshold-based power amps which were half the price of Krell at one time here...


To @rank, The CD-I was okay I recall, the CDX which replaced it a bag-o-nails in comparison.

 

[rank]

It's a critical discussion, not alone a blame game, as I see so far.

Yes thank you, this is in no way about criticizing any brand. I'm just giving my feelings, through real examples = that's all.
Of course, if we sit on the sacrosanct quality-price ratio, the discussion no longer makes any sense. If I can buy an integrated amplifier doing the same job for ten times less (or even 15 times given inflation), I'm not going to buy that. We're still talking about the designers of the NAC S1 and NAP S1!

To DSJR : thanks.

 

[Chrispy]

You probably weren't there back then

Living in the UK many years ago? No.

 

[LunaTempesta]

I was wondering why I saw a Naim NAP 250 for like 1/3rd of the price on a website. Pre-owned, but still.
Would all this have any effect on consumers? Wouldn't want to buy a faulthy second hand unit and then be stuck with it without having proper warranty or support.

 

[quattro98]

it wouldn't make sense if with an R&D budget 100 times their next competitor, they came up regularly with faulty designs.

Unless their ROI has little to do with the performance of the speakers and more to do with marketing, appearance, build quality, size, weight, high output capability, and non-flat response (showroom sound).

Every demo I've seen of the big Focal speakers (a long time ago, they were JM Lab) was at ear-splitting output levels. I look at the speakers and want to like them since they look cool and have a full line of products for multichannel and custom install, but they perform poorly as speakers.

 

[ivayvr]

My experience with Focal speakers was very positive. They were more or less entry level, but all were exceptional value. The first pair was Focal Chorus 705V, moved to Aria 905 and finally, I had Shape 40. I have only a very fond memories of all three pairs.

 

[sq225917]

I had the focal electra 1028, hard to site due to floor port, beaten by ns1000m. I imagine thry would have been rough fronted by olive naim gear.

 

[NoMoFoNo]

Too bloomin' right it isn't the same company (not as smug and self-satisfied today I feel, but very much more commercially minded as a dealer pal and colleague of old was treated the same way) - and if you fully support the brand it can work both ways.. Our local audio salon is hugely invested in Naim and has genuinely sold a few Statement amp confections (preamps first, the power amps come later on I gather). They don't seem to have supply issues and don't stock much Focal (Dynaudio is their speaker range of choice still, I gather).

Makers 'with attitude' and a full range they want stocked and promoted, are keen to the extreme to want full dealer support. No space for wishy washy cherry-pickers. When in the throes of the 'terrible twosome' in the 80's (Naim and Linn), we weren't able to get many far eastern agencies because they wanted all their products stocked, not just the well reviewed ones, which ruled out Matsushita/Technics, JVC and Kenwood (which were still making good stuff at the top of their range I recall) and eventually Yamaha and Sony, although we did have some mid 80's products from these companies (apparently, just plugging in a JVC CD player in the same room and mains circuit as a top Naim/Linn based system 'degraded the sound' due to mains interference (I'll park that one there).

Naim's products are also way different and measurably better than they once were in fairness (according to the few Stereophile and 1980s HiFi Choice tests I have), but prices are madness now, deliberately so, increasing every year (in the past on April 1st...) at least in line with inflation, but it still sells well I believe.

Thank gawd for ASR and exposure to better value-for-money products, many/most of which can last well.

And have you seen Linn prices these days? Wild.

 

[DSJR]

And have you seen Linn prices these days? Wild.

There's an LP12/Akito (spit) and Krystal pickup (double spit) for sale on UK eBay for NINE GRAND. I know the arm too well and cartridge quite well and both are simply not up to snuff in this neutral digital age. Not that long ago, the new price was a still high six grand or so. I've not looked at the rest of Linn's modern gear, as it tends to sell in a kind of 'snooty' B&O way with a few dedicated limited-product-range dealers (doesn't pay profit-wise to cherry-pick).

In a way and despite missing it all, I'm glad I'm out of it and no longer in that costly (to the client) mindset. Our local salon also sells Chord Electronics and Accuphase, a fair few of these ex-dem boxes now being sold off at a reduction I noticed (the Chord digital stuff seems to sell though, so no reductions there except the odd trade-in).

 

[DSJR]

I was wondering why I saw a Naim NAP 250 for like 1/3rd of the price on a website. Pre-owned, but still.
Would all this have any effect on consumers? Wouldn't want to buy a faulthy second hand unit and then be stuck with it without having proper warranty or support.

What 'era' was the NAP250? There have been several versions of this basic design and prices rose hugely with each generation, increasing with inflation every April 1st until fairly recently... Last issue 250s were far cleaner in perceived 'tone' than early CB versions, even when new - and if Stereophile reviews are to be believed, a 20dB or so reduction in distortion as time went on as well...

 

[CapMan]

Naim user for many years - started with a CDX/NAP180/NAC102 and over many years traded up to a CDS II / NAP 135s / NAC 52 which was their top system back in the days of Olive boxes. It's pretty much a cult that just encourages the next box upgrade to remove the sins of the current level gear.

Have a look at the Naim forum - just the worst kind of subjectivist voodoo by and large. Very rare that the advice is to fix the room or speakers - nearly always : power supply, cables, next amp up in range .. says it all .

Some good points - trading up through used gear was cost effective - relatively speaking. Old gear is still serviced by HQ so has good life expectancy and will go for years and years.

Happy that two racks of gear and 8 boxes have been replaced with a mid tier AVR!

 

[CapMan]

Now Bernard Arnault, he gets Veblen goods. But I don't think I've bought anything from his companies other than possible champagne (Moet, not Dom Perignon).

Does he still own Devialet - I think he put in a lot of the startup cash..

 

[ahofer]

Does he still own Devialet - I think he put in a lot of the startup cash..

Doesn't look like it, but I haven't bought anything from them either.

Devialet - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[sktn77a]

Old gear is still serviced by HQ so has good life expectancy and will go for years and years.

Check out some recent Naim Forum posts - looks like Naim is welching out on servicing even relatively new (less than 10 years old) gear with no convincing reasoning!

 

[CapMan]

Check out some recent Naim Forum posts - looks like Naim is welching out on servicing even relatively new (less than 10 years old) gear with no convincing reasoning!

If true that would be a turn for the worse

 

[somebodyelse]

Check out some recent Naim Forum posts - looks like Naim is welching out on servicing even relatively new (less than 10 years old) gear with no convincing reasoning!

https://community.naimaudio.com/t/superline-service-quandary-disappointment/36556/376 by any chance? If I understand it right they've stopped offering service on working examples of a few specific products, but will still repair broken ones. This, and the lack of notice, seems to have annoyed a number of owners. The claim is that these models are difficult to service, with an unacceptable risk of damaging them in the process, but some people don't seem to believe them. It's hard to say from the outside whether it's a genuine problem or a convenient excuse. You could argue they could just have increased the service price for these models to cover the cost.