Dealers leaving Naim

[Mart68]

So would you like to give us your top prices for other products please, Speakers? Amps? TVs? cars?

Speakers are mechanical engineering, where's the boundary at for that?

Amplifiers - depends how much clean power you need, where's the limit?

TVs - how big a screen, how much definition? Where's the limit?

Cars - are mechanical engineering, where's the boundary at for that?

A streamer, on the other hand, has a single defined task that can be taken to notionally perfect, measured, and defined as such, for not a lot of money.

If they can't totally optimize the power supply in the actual device itself and still sell it for £13K and make a good profit, then they're in the wrong business.

But in fact they're in the right business as there's actually a market for £14K worth of add-on power supplies for £13K streamers, insane as that sounds.

 

[mhardy6647]

But in fact they're in the right business as there's actually a market for £14K worth of add-on power supplies for £13K streamers, insane as that sounds.

That's nonlinearity!

 

[sergeauckland]

Naim have consistently supported a dealer network that gives personal demos of all their products. Users listen and make their own mind up, no one is being deceived in any way. Hear the benefit, evaluate the value and buy or not.

Yes, subjective, with no controls, and often with a salesman present to guide the listener. Where's the objectivity in that?

S.

 

[DSJR]

Yes, subjective, with no controls, and often with a salesman present to guide the listener. Where's the objectivity in that?

S.

Mind you, that's how you and I sold gear to customers really, wasn't it?

Speaking for myself, I was young and very naive indeed back then, so ripe for the conditioning that peeps like me had (it helped in that I sing along to songs naturally and didn't need any extra encouragement for the 'tune dem'). It took Linn bringing out their more neutral if band limited pre and power amp to loosen the initial spell, then subsequently inadvertently proving how awful the LP12/Ittok/Troika was playing records compared to the master that made them and then a little later again (late 80s), hearing a live jazz trio (drums, sax and keyboard not turned up high) to show me how far off the track I'd got in terms of 'fidelity,' which made me question the entire audio industry of the time. Earlier regular visits to the Royal Festival Hall and RAH for the odd proms concert, had me in denial a good bit as my Isobarik speakers sounded *nothing like* the live event on string tone for example, yet boogied away well on pop/rock genres and this, despite how a dear, now deceased friend's Quad 44/405/57* system sounded at low levels, absolutely superb on string tone and boogied too if levels were sensible and 'intimate' rather than head-banging volumes (my ATC 100As did that later on ).

These days and with my degraded hearing and age, I found the Naim/Dynaudio systems my local audio salon is pushing, rather fatiguing after half an hour - I had to leave the room on one occasion when attending a maker's presentation - and not in the slightest bit 'exciting' or 'impressive,' despite the two hundred grand (plus sources and dedicated cabling) UK asking price!

*Back then, Quad amps went into protection/limiting with low impedance speaker loads. Thank heavens for the 606 amp which didn't and also the 66 and onwards preamps which I very much liked.

 

[Mart68]

Mind you, that's how you and I sold gear to customers really, wasn't it?

Yeah, but you can over-think it.

You don't need to do a blind test to know if you're enjoying the experience of listening to the music over any given system, or not.

Now if the dealer wants to show you how much better the £13K streamer is over the £1K offering, that's a comparison, and a different kettle of fish.

 

[sergeauckland]

Yeah, but you can over-think it.

You don't need to do a blind test to know if you're enjoying the experience of listening to the music over any given system, or not.

Now if the dealer wants to show you how much better the £13K streamer is over the £1K offering, that's a comparison, and a different kettle of fish.

Which is why I've never bought anything on a listening test before purchase. I've always chosen stuff based on the specs, and a visual inspection and fiddle with the controls to see if the ergonomics are pleasing.

The only time that let me down was when I bought a Linn LP12 to replace my Connoisseur BD1. I wish I had listened to it first, as it would have shown no improvement over the BD1, in spite of the better specs.

S.

 

[Mart68]

Which is why I've never bought anything on a listening test before purchase. I've always chosen stuff based on the specs, and a visual inspection and fiddle with the controls to see if the ergonomics are pleasing.

Likewise - if it passes those tests I just buy it and find out over time if I want to keep it.

 

[Purité Audio]

Yeah, but you can over-think it.

You don't need to do a blind test to know if you're enjoying the experience of listening to the music over any given system, or not.

Now if the dealer wants to show you how much better the £13K streamer is over the £1K offering, that's a comparison, and a different kettle of fish.

Not quite the same thing, but a couple of guys came here and amongst others played a Mark Knofler track, there was a bit of ‘pearl clutching’ and when I asked what the matter was they said there was too much bass ( I had previously measured the 8Cs, implemented filters and listened to them to check) essentially these two guys had never heard bass before, kind of shocking.
Both older men who had been keen on audio all their lives yet had followed the source first pair of bean tins for speakers dictum.
Keith

 

[Mart68]

Not quite the same thing, but a couple of guys came here and amongst others played a Mark Knofler track, there was a bit of ‘pearl clutching’ and when I asked what the matter was they said there was too much bass ( I had previously measured the 8Cs, implemented filters and listened to them to check) essentially these two guys had never heard bass before, kind of shocking.
Both older men who had been keen on audio all their lives yet had followed the source first pair of bean tins for speakers dictum.
Keith

'Pearl clutching' - I like it

I sometimes come across people who still think a Linn Kan is a good choice for a used 'budget' speaker.

 

[Haskil]

It's quite simple: at the price NAIM charges for each of its electronics, the least we can do is to ensure that each one achieves the maximum performance expected from the means used to develop it.

For the same price, other brands offer products that are impossible to improve, because their designers have made the most of the circuits and components used. And for the same price as NAIM's, you'll find a host of higher-performance products from other brands.
NAIM's external power supplies are a flaw in the thinking that characterizes quite well the obscurantist audiophilia born in the early 1970s, which called itself esoteric.

In my eyes and ears, Naim products only had the quality of being well laid out inside, with neatly drawn cables and a sober, functional external aesthetic... for the rest, their preamps and amps sounded no better or worse, external power supply or not, than a Yamaha AX 596 or AX 892. ... and their little integrated, called Elicit from memory (edit. Nait !), didn't sound any better either, than the first integrated of the same power sold by a major Japanese manufacturer or by NAD... but cost much more than them...

I never understood why this brand enjoyed such an aura in certain audiophile circles... And the external power supplies were shrouded in an in-house mystery that made many professionals smile: what kind of stupid idea was it to place regulators far from the circuits?

Focal is another story altogether... the founder has built up a great brand of loudspeakers, admittedly a bit m'as-tu vu and with solutions that are at least as much marketing as technical, but the manufacturing quality of its top-of-the-range products is mind-boggling in their perfection and finish, and the loudspeakers at each price point are good compared with the international competition, even if personally I find that the luxury of the Utopia and series derived from it raises the price colossally without improving the sound... I happen to own some Divatech Moniteurs de grandes écoutes by MC 210, which was JM Lab's professional brand. These speakers were developed in parallel with the Grande Utopia 1, which they surpassed in every respect, but in a presentation in two unattractive but splendidly constructed cabinets... the price was 5 times less... for a footprint of only 2/3...

Many French audiophiles did not understand the rapprochement between Focal and Naim, a marriage which for many was that of carp and rabbit...

 

[DSJR]

Which is why I've never bought anything on a listening test before purchase. I've always chosen stuff based on the specs, and a visual inspection and fiddle with the controls to see if the ergonomics are pleasing.

The only time that let me down was when I bought a Linn LP12 to replace my Connoisseur BD1. I wish I had listened to it first, as it would have shown no improvement over the BD1, in spite of the better specs.

S.

Then the LP12 was VERY BADLY put together, as the noise difference through the stylus alone would have shown you!!! Maybe when new, the BD1 might have been better, but the couple I had through my hands in past years, suffered motor drone through the speakers (mind you, I notice it with older Rega decks too, so maybe I've become attuned to motor harmonics as picked up by the stylus. If nothing else, an LP12 was as silent as the record and pickup allowed in quiet passages. (Mind you, these days I'd rather have a good condition TD150mk2 as I know how to 'breathe' on it to see me out - As it is, there's a TD160 'almost' 160 Super spec with refreshed main bearing as they wear out, waiting to go again)

Apologies again for the digression here.

 

[DSJR]

Not quite the same thing, but a couple of guys came here and amongst others played a Mark Knofler track, there was a bit of ‘pearl clutching’ and when I asked what the matter was they said there was too much bass ( I had previously measured the 8Cs, implemented filters and listened to them to check) essentially these two guys had never heard bass before, kind of shocking.
Both older men who had been keen on audio all their lives yet had followed the source first pair of bean tins for speakers dictum.
Keith

Source first used to be vital for vinyl, but after the late 80s at the latest, all but irrelevant for digital reproduction... I say used to be for vinyl, as I think that you can get one or two very good indeed turntable/arm/cartridge combos now for only a few hundred quid AS LONG AS they're properly sited and used with a decent phono stage which again now, doesn't need to cost many hundreds...

 

[DSJR]

'Pearl clutching' - I like it

I sometimes come across people who still think a Linn Kan is a good choice for a used 'budget' speaker.

I hated the bloody things at the time, let alone today (I even made a pair up at Linn and somewhere, there's a walnut pair with my monika carved on the front baffle)


@Haskil - the Naim integrateds are called NAITs, the current Super-Nait 3 unrecognisable internally from the rather cute 1985 original (with built-in eq for the phono stage over the basic RIAA curve).

The Elex, Elicit and so on are Rega products which started life in 'clamshell' form in the late 80s. These also, lacked the hard-hitting and 2-D presentation of larger Naim amps of the CB and Olive stylee period and tended to polarise opinion back then - trad Naim fans didn't care so much for them, but I don't think any were properly tested an dmeasured, so who knows how good or bad they were.

 

[Gringoaudio1]

I don't know what you mean

Pearson your subjective opinion means nothing here. This is a forum based on science and measurements.

 

[Haskil]

I hated the bloody things at the time, let alone today (I even made a pair up at Linn and somewhere, there's a walnut pair with my monika carved on the front baffle)


@Haskil - the Naim integrateds are called NAITs, the current Super-Nait 3 unrecognisable internally from the rather cute 1985 original (with built-in eq for the phono stage over the basic RIAA curve).

The Elex, Elicit and so on are Rega products which started life in 'clamshell' form in the late 80s. These also, lacked the hard-hitting and 2-D presentation of larger Naim amps of the CB and Olive stylee period and tended to polarise opinion back then - trad Naim fans didn't care so much for them, but I don't think any were properly tested an dmeasured, so who knows how good or bad they were.

Ah yes, I confused between the two most problematic brands for me at that time... because of the vague discourse surrounding them in the hifi press in France...

 

[CapMan]

Yes, subjective, with no controls, and often with a salesman present to guide the listener. Where's the objectivity in that?

S.

I went to a Naim dealer many years ago who sat next to me on the sofa whilst listening to Superstition (Stevie Wonder) - he was gyrating, bouncing up and down and constantly commenting on the pace , rhythm and timing of the system ...

But as a balance - he drove the gear to my home , installed and offered advice on placement ...