New to ASR - Thoughts on my Setup?

[imbleofruity]

So pleased to find this place. I thought I'd share my setup in case anyone has suggestions about simple improvements. Main source is Oppo BPD 95 - Naim XS2 - PMC Twenty 20s. Old Thinkpad X220 (as a server insofar as I just have files that I play using Foobar) - Naim DACV1 - XS 2. Enjoy the Oppo a little more than the X220, but find it easier to get work done with the latter playing. Room is small - odd rectangle 15 feet by 25. Setup is at short end and likely to stay there.

I like the Naim sound - always have. All of it was bought used and I'm happy to accept that it's overpriced in general. Haven't upgraded for years but do occasionally wonder if I'm missing anything with, say, the speakers. Just posting in case there are obvious / cheap improvements. I am new to the idea using EQ - seems to help more with headphones?

Thoughts welcome!

 

[Curvature]

PMC Twenty 20

https://www.spinorama.org/speakers/PMC Twenty 21/ASR/index_asr.html
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...pmc-twenty-21-bookshelf-speaker-review.14442/

This is a set of measurements of a more updated model, the Twenty 21s. They show an expensive speaker that performs poorly.

Speakers are just about the only thing that really matters. Competent amps, preamps, DACs, etc. have no sound of their own. If they do, it indicates some kind of gross error. Major improvements to most systems are a subwoofer or two, or four, a measurement microphone and a means of parametric EQ. This can be fairly cheap. Measurement microphones like the UMIK-1 are $100. Getting PEQ might mean a new integrated amplifier or it might mean free software download.

My home system is a computer feeding my TV and a DAC through USB. The DAC feeds my active speakers and active sub. I used to add EQ by using the built-in DSP of each speaker, sub and DAC, but that became too bothersome. I now use EqualizerAPO with the Peace Interface through my computer. The only major improvements I'm waiting for are: (1) compact cardioid speakers, like AsciLab's, and (2) Dirac ART, which is a complex software-based method of controlling bass decay times.

PMC is an established brand that has used its good name to hide significant engineering faults and justify high prices, especially for its much larger speakers destined for the studio.

What's become clear since speakers measurements have become more common is that brands which refuse to show them are never worth the money. Measurements allow you to make a pound per pound comparison of what the manufacturer is able to deliver.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...kers-in-the-world.17178/page-330#post-2321974
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/ascilab-speakers-are-about-to-launch.54794/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/active-room-treatment-art-by-dirac.40743/

Edit: Removed cumbersome URL auto-embeds.

 

[DanielT]

Speakers are just about the only thing that really matters.

Absolutely. Then speakers should be chosen and which ones can depend on a number of different factors. For example, take a pair:

Google Nest Audio Speaker Review

This is a review, teardown, detailed measurements, listening tests and EQ of Google Audio Nest "smart" streaming speaker. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member. List price is US $99.99 but I see it as low as US $65. While not very unique in its looks, the Nest Audio nicely fits in the...

audiosciencereview.com

Surprisingly good considering the low price but of course no SPL monsters. No, for natural physical reasons, bass monsters either. If you can live without it or it's not that important, they can absolutely be a choice (subwoofer can be added to them if you have Google Chromecast, I should add).

So in addition to a good, even, FR as all speakers should have, they can differ in SPL level, bass ability and how they spread the sound. The thing with dispersion is a matter of taste and preference, which is very clear in this thread:

omnidirectional loudspeakers = best design available

The most important aspect of home audio reproduction, is the role of the loudspeaker. Omnidirectional loudspeakers produce the most realistic musical soundstage in the home; however they remain the least understood by the public and audiophools alike. The superiority of the design is easily...

audiosciencereview.com

You mentioned EQ. Can work wonders in the bass range. Or rather, it works wonders in the bass range.
Just the right amount of furniture and carpets (preference and taste) in the listening room is also an important aspect. There you can experiment with, for example, with or without side absorbers at the speakers, perhaps thick carpet in front of the speakers. Thick curtains at the windows.
If you have a listening sofa that is pushed up, close to the back wall and the speakers in front of the sofa, it also means some challenges with the acoustics.

The placement of the speakers in the listening room is a very important aspect.

Short listening distance, for example, I had considered some coax. For example:

• Subjective listening was primarily at 1.5 meters. Subjective listening was conducted at 80-95dB at this distance. Higher volumes were done simply to test the output capability in case one wants to try to sit further away.
• If you are looking for speakers for home theater or high-volume listening in a farfield situation like a living room or media room, these speakers are not recommended. These are designed for nearfield listening; the manual states the recommended listening range at 1 to 2 meters and most engineers mix in the 80-85dB range. As you can see in my frequency response linearity testing, the output is limited (via internal DSP) somewhere above the 96dB @ 1m output level. This is purposely designed to protect the speakers from being overdriven and thanks to this, they are indeed best served at moderate volumes and/or nearfield listening.

Kali Audio IN-5 3-Way Studio Monitor Review

Kali Audio IN-5 3-Way Studio Monitor Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

That's what I came up with just now.

By the way, welcome to ASR @imbleofruity
Buget?
Will you sell your PMC Twenty 20? What is the PMC model? I can only see PMC Twenty starting with 21 and then 22 and so on but I don't see any 20 if I google.

Edit:
For higher SPL, good sound high SPL that is, you may need to open up the slightly bigger wallet, for example:

• Overall, these play loud, clean, and dynamic—among the best I’ve tested, even compared to speakers twice the price

Arendal 1528 Monitor 8 Review

Arendal 1528 Monitor 8 Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

So it all depends on what you @imbleofruity are looking for and your budget.

 

[imbleofruity]

Correction: PMCs are Twenty.22s. I do not recognize the conclusions in the ASR review of the Twenty.21s. I like the sound. Most of my listening is classical or jazz, so perhaps that minimizes the imperfections. There is certainly enough accuracy for me and I could not describe the brightness as harsh. Perhaps the Twenty.22s are a less offensive 'mistake' by PMC . Skim reading other comments here, perhaps the larger woofer compensates for the misery of the 21s.

My use of 'simple' and 'cheap' might have escaped your attention! Is there a way to introduce EQ into the Oppo-BPD setup, or is it only realistic for the laptop-DAC?

Edit: looks like a couple of users here really didn't like the Twenty.22s and are happy to post repeatedly saying so. I just haven't experienced the sibilance of the treble. Female vocals, particularly opera, sound just fine. I may well replace them, but not right now.

 

[Curvature]

Is there a way to introduce EQ into the Oppo-BPD setup, or is it only realistic for the laptop-DAC?

Either a separate device like something offered by miniDSP, a new integrated amplifier or preamp, or a free download of EQ APO/Peace on your laptop.

 

[imbleofruity]

Either a separate device like something offered by miniDSP, a new integrated amplifier or preamp, or a free download of EQ APO/Peace on your laptop.

Appreciate that. Looks like UMIK-1 and APO/Peace is the first step.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, and welcome
Try to read around *what* members are saying - don't worry about *how* we say it

You enjoy your sound, that's the key. Absolutely agree that speakers, and speakers *in your room* is what makes the difference.
Changing either speakers or the room can get expensive ... that's where PEQ comes in. Little point in fiddling with PEQ if you haven't measured first.

Easy to do on your laptop, as you have realised.

For the Oppo, you need to put something between it and the Naim, in the digital domain. MiniDSP, or perhaps a WiiM Pro Plus (good DAC) would work nicely and not expensively.
One advantage of the WiiM is it's automated Room Correction - it measures for you and you can see (and change) what it has done. Handy while you are learning.

Enjoy

 

[kemmler3D]

Most of my listening is classical or jazz, so perhaps that minimizes the imperfections

Jazz does tend to minimize the impact of speaker problems, classical less so.

I agree that the obvious place for an upgrade would be the speakers, but if you are happy and like the sound, "if it ain't broke don't fix it."

There are plenty of options for nice neutral bookshelf size speakers out there if you get curious... Otherwise I would strongly concur with the advice to use EQ for room correction if you can, either way.

 

[Curvature]

PMC is an established brand that has used its good name to hide significant engineering faults and justify high prices, especially for its much larger speakers destined for the studio.

Comprehensive PMC measurements are hard to come by, but here are two examples measured by Anselm Goertz in a hemianechoic chamber.

PMC DB1S-A II

PMC AML1

 

[DanielT]

Appreciate that. Looks like UMIK-1 and APO/Peace is the first step.

Makes sense.

I rambled on about various things in my last post. It was perhaps too much, I admit. Anyway, with UMIK-1 and APO you can try setting the EQ that suits you. It is very possible that you will be happy with it and can then just listen and enjoy your music.

You said jazz. Here you might find a lot you like:

Jazz ♫ Music only | In the now, or recently, or that you love...

Any medium (analog and/or digital), any cover album or video, all Jazz related ... and discussions... ...All that jazz love affair. I'm big on John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Chet Baker...and many many more...Billie Holiday, Nina Simone...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[imbleofruity]

Makes sense.

I rambled on about various things in my last post. It was perhaps too much, I admit. Anyway, with UMIK-1 and APO you can try setting the EQ that suits you. It is very possible that you will be happy with it and can then just listen and enjoy your music.

You said jazz. Here you might find a lot you like:

Jazz ♫ Music only | In the now, or recently, or that you love...

Any medium (analog and/or digital), any cover album or video, all Jazz related ... and discussions... ...All that jazz love affair. I'm big on John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Chet Baker...and many many more...Billie Holiday, Nina Simone...

audiosciencereview.com

We're good! The detail was welcome, as was the Arendel rec. It just might take me a while to get there.
And Nina? Ah, she's blues. Everything starts with the blues...

 

[imbleofruity]

Jazz does tend to minimize the impact of speaker problems, classical less so.

I agree that the obvious place for an upgrade would be the speakers, but if you are happy and like the sound, "if it ain't broke don't fix it."

There are plenty of options for nice neutral bookshelf size speakers out there if you get curious... Otherwise I would strongly concur with the advice to use EQ for room correction if you can, either way.

Noted - as are all comments about the speakers. As I mentioned, I may be (am...) unaware of the alternatives.

 

[kemmler3D]

Noted - as are all comments about the speakers. As I mentioned, I may be (am...) unaware of the alternatives.

Check out the threads on the Ascilab speakers that recently came out, they're stealing the spotlight with very smooth on and off axis responses for very fair prices lately. Other than that KEF, genelec, Neumann, ascend, revel and some others get mentioned a lot in these threads.

All that said, if you like the speakers don't feel obligated to stop liking them because someone pointed out the measurements are not in line with best practices. Research says most people prefer a "flat" speaker but that doesn't mean you personally are supposed to.

If you are curious, a good next stop would be any given hi-fi shop where you can demo something from the "ASR approved" list and see what you think of it. By virtue of targeting similar responses they tend to have a lot in common subjectively.

 

[JSmith]

So pleased to find this place.

Hey, welcome to ASR.


JSmith

 

[DanielT]

Appreciate that. Looks like UMIK-1 and APO/Peace is the first step.

It can be good to have power resources when performing EQ. In the bass area there can easily be swings of 10 dB. Such a peak, if you pull it down, gives a more balanced bass response but the acoustic bass boost of the room is thus removed. I had to turn up the gain quite a bit on my sub after I pulled my peak down. With that, it is then good to then have power headroom, power to "eat up" so to speak. But now it sounds much better I think. PEQ via an app, fortunately it works with Spotify. I also took Amir's EQ settings regarding Wharfedale Diamond 220 and entered them into the PEQ app.

So far I have only plugged in the subwoofer in the middle of the speakers.