Dealers leaving Naim

[Keith_W]

Just to put some context into what has been happening recently. It looks as if what has been happening in Australia has had a global effect on Naim and Focal.

First, the actors:
- VerVent Audio Group - owners of Naim and Focal.
- BusiSoft Audio Visual - former Australian distributor of Naim and Focal.
- Westan Audio Visual - current Australian distributor of Naim and Focal.

You will need this context to read this article. It says a few interesting things, including this statement: "VerVent has a questionable track record in Australian having appointed and then dumped several distributors of their products". The article then implies that the reason for this behaviour is because they "failed to gain the traction that Focal/Naim wanted". In other words: they set an aggressive sales target, and dumped distributors who did not meet the target.

After BusiSoft separated from VerVent, they undertook an aggressive discounting strategy to dump their existing stock. Then there was a question as to who would take on warranty liability - Vervent? The old distributor? The new distributor? This gained worldwide attention, with a thread on Naim's forum titled "Insane new pricing in Australia". It appears as if this had a global ripple effect and people are starting to question the value proposition of Naim and Focal products.

 

[ivayvr]

We have our favourites, but in the end it's all about what sound you like. I don't like Mcintosh. Their products are ugly and it's almost like a light show on the front with vu meters. Who cares to look at it? Sound quality and price simply do not match. There is more to the eyes than to the ears.

Here we go again! How your taste can make something the best or worst?
Let's get serious here.

 

[Pearson1977]

Here we go again! How your taste can make something the best or worst?
Let's get serious here.

I don't know what you mean

 

[DSJR]

Never understood the fascination with Naim myself...

You probably weren't there back then

 

[DSJR]

I can describe the sound as dark and smooth. Although they'll deny it, there's almost certainly added coloration to their sound like most other popular brands.

Dark and smooth? NAIM???

Bright tone, with higher order distortion harmonics around the -70dB mark or worse, according to Hifi Choice and a test by Stan Curtis once in the early 80s, 2-D soundstage in older models, up-front like a tamed old PA amp and the old circuit drifted off spec after a few years of 24/7, needing an expensive service to re-cap here and there and re-align the offsets and so on...

Post the 2000 cosmetic update, the innards gradually improved and a Stereophile tests I've seen show something like a 20dB or so reduction in distortion these days in fairness, but even the Statement amp confection at £150k or so is still a 'Naim' in sound and into Dynaudio Confidence 60's, I had a headache after forty minutes or so. The very same speakers in this room some years back now, did not do that with either Accuphase or Chord amps driving them - and yes I do appreciate this is a personal subjective vibe here!

 

[ivayvr]

I don't know what you mean

It is very simple. You said that Naim is the best, you like the sound .....If you said I like it the most, that would be reasonable statement. But the fact that it is your favorite, doesn't make it good and definitely not the best.
The looks of other brands is totally irrelevant. I am not a big fan of Mac, but who cares.

 

[NDRQ]

Naim is just the n+1 overpriced audiophile company, with mediocre products at the best case, so i wont cry for them.

 

[rank]

Wasn't that the brand where you also had to buy their cables (often DIN) because of an impedance issue?! And who sold additional power supplies at crazy prices?

 

[OCA]

higher order distortion harmonics around the -70dB mark or worse, according to Hifi Choice and a test by Stan Curtis once in the early 80s, 2-D soundstage

I was 10 in the early 80s and none of these factors have any relevance in the colour of its sound, it's just a secret EQ applied. I used a Nait 2 with Flatcap and then a SuperNait 2 later. I bought them second hand with old caps but both sounded fine to me at the time especially the SuperNait certainly nowhere near a SOTA Fosi D class

 

[somebodyelse]

Wasn't that the brand where you also had to buy their cables (often DIN) because of an impedance issue?! And who sold additional power supplies at crazy prices?

It was the speaker cables (well...really the amps) that had an impedance issue. Was the explanation a design decision or a post-facto rationalisation of a design error? You decide...

 

[DSJR]

Wasn't that the brand where you also had to buy their cables (often DIN) because of an impedance issue?! And who sold additional power supplies at crazy prices?

There's a UK site that goes into *why* their dated single (not split) +24VDC rail circuit could respond to larger power supplies. Of course, adding another box and cabling rather than putting the regulators right next to the gain blocks where they're needed, makes for part of the never ending upgrade ladder as one has to buy extra (expensive) tiers on their dedicated 'Fraim' racking/shelving system. UK dealers make their living doing this

 

[DSJR]

I was 10 in the early 80s and none of these factors have any relevance in the colour of its sound, it's just a secret EQ applied. I used a Nait 2 with Flatcap and then a SuperNait 2 later. I bought them second hand with old caps but both sounded fine to me at the time especially the SuperNait certainly nowhere near a SOTA Fosi D class

No secret eq on the line stages, but the RIAA stage on the Nait had a mid hf lift as I remember and the power supply was positively weedy, as was the Nait 3/NAP90 in its various guises. I do believe the distortion and IMD spectra could tell a few tales back then if not now until hard-clipping is reached.

 

[dfuller]

I can't think of any two brands more overrated than Focal and Naim.

Focal builds dozens-of-kilobuck domestic speakers that are mediocre at best, and I know of very few actually serious studio users with their pro monitor line (I've used them in other studios - and owned a couple of different sets - and consider them to be some of the worst speakers I've ever used in that regard).

I'm unsurprised the warranty stuff took a nosedive as their support in the US has pretty much always been awful.

 

[OCA]

No secret eq on the line stages, but the RIAA stage on the Nait had a mid hf lift as I remember and the power supply was positively weedy, as was the Nait 3/NAP90 in its various guises. I do believe the distortion and IMD spectra could tell a few tales back then if not now until hard-clipping is reached.

While some might dismiss it as snake oil, Naim has successfully entertained and satisfied customers for decades. Their amplifiers may not resonate the right musical emotions in our brains, but if their marketing could evoke similar feelings, it's still a remarkable success and quite fair from the consumers' perspective. I’ve yet to hear anyone regret paying top dollars for their products, and their loyal following remains unmatched in the industry. If I remember correctly, there was an Italian company producing cheaper alternatives for their power upgrades and even these were highly sought after in the secondary market many years later.

 

[Pearson1977]

It is very simple. You said that Naim is the best, you like the sound .....If you said I like it the most, that would be reasonable statement. But the fact that it is your favorite, doesn't make it good and definitely not the best.
The looks of other brands is totally irrelevant. I am not a big fan of Mac, but who cares.

It was a joke. rank said:
For the price or even much less, there are better products in Europe or North America. I had the opportunity to compare some (old and new versions) with much cheaper equipment, no discussion.
I said:
For the price Naim are the best product in Europe or North America. I had the opportunity to compare some (old and new versions) with much cheaper/equipment, no discussion.

But you hate Naim and this thread has gradually developed into one where everything is bad about Naim.

 

[Salt]

It's a critical discussion, not alone a blame game, as I see so far.

 

[somebodyelse]

I’ve yet to hear anyone regret paying top dollars for their products

I have. They didn't expect BBC streaming capabilities to suddenly stop working given Radio 3 was a significant part of their listening. There's a good argument that it was actually the BBC's fault as the test stream had the same codec but a different protocol to the one they eventually released, and Naim (along with most of the rest of the streamer industry) couldn't handle the new protocol. I think Naim got there eventually. There were other significant frustrations with firmware issues, but the BBC thing was a deal breaker.

 

[ivayvr]

There's a UK site that goes into *why* their dated single (not split) +24VDC rail circuit could respond to larger power supplies. Of course, adding another box and cabling rather than putting the regulators right next to the gain blocks where they're needed, makes for part of the never ending upgrade ladder as one has to buy extra (expensive) tiers on their dedicated 'Fraim' racking/shelving system. UK dealers make their living doing this

Sounds like a very elaborate rip off! But nobody can deny the sound is the best

!
I was always fond of British sense of Humor!

 

[ivayvr]

It was a joke. rank said:
For the price or even much less, there are better products in Europe or North America. I had the opportunity to compare some (old and new versions) with much cheaper equipment, no discussion.
I said:
For the price Naim are the best product in Europe or North America. I had the opportunity to compare some (old and new versions) with much cheaper/equipment, no discussion.

But you hate Naim and this thread has gradually developed into one where everything is bad about Naim.

I hate smoke and mirror marketing and taking advantage of people's ignorance. If Naim is not part of that, they have nothing to worry about.

 

[somebodyelse]

While some might dismiss it as snake oil, Naim has successfully entertained and satisfied customers for decades. Their amplifiers may not resonate the right musical emotions in our brains, but if their marketing could evoke similar feelings, it's still a remarkable success and quite fair from the consumers' perspective.

The triumph of marketing over performance is pretty much the definition of snake oil. If audio performance is your priority the coat fits. The other viewpoint is that for them audio quality isn't really the point, just as timekeeping isn't for premium watch manufacturers. The timekeeping of a Rolex is good enough for their customers, even if it's no better than a cheap Casio.