Dealers leaving Naim

[Greenman]

Have a look at the Naim forum - just the worst kind of subjectivist voodoo by and large. Very rare that the advice is to fix the room or speakers - nearly always : power supply, cables, next amp up in range .. says it all .

I don’t think this is a fair representation. One of the things I particularly liked about Naim back in the day was that cables was a none issue. Everyone just used the included Naim cables and their pretty cheap speaker cable and that was it. Now I know more recently they have a range of power cables and different speaker cable etc, but these are no where near the obsession levels as compaired to most high end ‘audiophile’ brands.

Now power supplies, that’s a different matter, but at lease there are genuine engineering reasons for the power supply philosophy.

 

[sergeauckland]

I don’t think this is a fair representation. One of the things I particularly liked about Naim back in the day was that cables was a none issue. Everyone just used the included Naim cables and their pretty cheap speaker cable and that was it. Now I know more recently they have a range of power cables and different speaker cable etc, but these are no where near the obsession levels as compaired to most high end ‘audiophile’ brands.

Now power supplies, that’s a different matter, but at lease there are genuine engineering reasons for the power supply philosophy.

Not in my view. If an amplifier is so sensitive to power supplies, then it's either very badly engineered, or the 'uprated' power supply should be provided as standard.

From what I can see from some measurements, the uprated power supplies only did something in the user's imagination. (and to the Dealer's profit)

S.

 

[Greenman]

or the 'uprated' power supply should be provided as standard.

Strange argument, a bit like saying if mono power amps sound better than stereo that the stereo version shouldn’t be an option!. Anyway we obviously agree to disagree.

 

[CapMan]

Now I know more recently they have a range of power cables and different speaker cable etc, but these are no where near the obsession levels as compaired to most high end ‘audiophile’ brands.

Are you sure ?

 

[Petevid]

Strange argument, a bit like saying if mono power amps sound better than stereo that the stereo version shouldn’t be an option!. Anyway we obviously agree to disagree.

What? An amp requires a power supply to work , mono and stereo amps are separate types of devices not dependant upon one another.

 

[NoMoFoNo]

ANY company offering cables for thousands of dollars/pounds/euros, unless those cables support medical critical-care equipment, should lose it everything. You want to knowingly rip customers off that way? I hope you go out of business.

 

[audio_tony]

It was the speaker cables (well...really the amps) that had an impedance issue. Was the explanation a design decision or a post-facto rationalisation of a design error? You decide...

The early amps were often unstable unless the Naim specific speaker cable was used. It was an issue of inductance not impedance.

This was because the designer didn't place an inductor in series with the output, because he believed it impaired the sound quality (a series inductor is often a requirement with many designs based on the original RCA circuit).

Naim later (partially) solved the problem by inserting a 0.1 ohm resistor in series with the output which did improve stability.

The requirement for their own cable was even stated in some of the user manuals.

 

[DSJR]

Not in my view. If an amplifier is so sensitive to power supplies, then it's either very badly engineered, or the 'uprated' power supply should be provided as standard.

From what I can see from some measurements, the uprated power supplies only did something in the user's imagination. (and to the Dealer's profit)

S.

Umm - in the CB and Olive days, the differences were consistent and beneficial to those who spent most evenings and weekends enjoying their music. I'd however go with your former suggestion Serge (and it was shown that having the regulators so far away in a separate box wasn't necessarily the best way to do it, but for the business of selling upgrades, of course...

I mean, The Cyrus 2 amps I used to sell were definitely enhanced by the PSX power-amp section add-on supply, the bass region taking on more subjective 'drive' into many different speakers used with it on dem. measurements in this case only showed a small increase in standard power output, but maybe the current drive was improved too, I don't know as it was along time ago (reviews in the HiFi Choice mid 80s scans on the worldradiohistory UK section). ideally, the Cyrius 2 and later models using this 'upgrade ladder,' should have had the blasted PSXs built into a full-width case, with a separate fully regulated (it was I believe in fairness) supply to the phono section...

 

[Greenman]

Are you sure ?

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Touché - indeed these are bonkers prices. Back in the Julian V days this just wasn’t the case, cables were included, speaker wire although pretty much required was cheap (A4 or A5 cables), I spent many hours in Naim dealers in 80s-2010s and the only cables I was ever ‘pushed’ to any degree was the dealers own home made Power extension, a 6 outlet device for around £100. This was in the days that many (most) other high end brands tried to push expensive interconnects to ‘match’ their separates.

What? An amp requires a power supply to work , mono and stereo amps are separate types of devices not dependant upon one another.

Mono and Stereo amps (in same range and manufacturer) likely only differ by the mono amps having a power supply and enclosure per channel and the Stereo sharing such.

The Naim philosophy should suit those sceptical of the benefit of better power supplies as Naim give you the option of (typically) powering a preamp (or streamer etc) from the power amp supply or adding external supplies. You don’t have to ‘waste’ your money on the extra transformers and capacitors because you think there is no benefit, leave the bigger supplies to others.

 

[sergeauckland]

The Naim philosophy should suit those sceptical of the benefit of better power supplies as Naim give you the option of (typically) powering a preamp (or streamer etc) from the power amp supply or adding external supplies. You don’t have to ‘waste’ your money on the extra transformers and capacitors because you think there is no benefit, leave the bigger supplies to others.

That's a specious argument. If the extra power supplies are verifiably beneficial, then they should be included as standard. If they're not, then it's fraudulent to suggest they are.

S

 

[Greenman]

If the extra power supplies are verifiably beneficial, then they should be included as standard

Im struggling to understand how anyone could even hold this opinion!!

Every manufacturer provides a range of products from cheaper to more expensive. They believe the more expensive products are better, are you saying they should not provide cheaper products because they are capable of making something better….bonkers!!

 

[Purité Audio]

Another specious argument , a product should be inherently fit for purpose.
Which is not the same thing as manufacturing for example making a more powerful version .
Keith

 

[sergeauckland]

Im struggling to understand how anyone could even hold this opinion!!

Every manufacturer provides a range of products from cheaper to more expensive. They believe the more expensive products are better, are you saying they should not provide cheaper products because they are capable of making something better….bonkers!!

They can believe what they want, but if the belief isn't backed up by the measurements, (which the manufacturer should be well aware of) then it's fraudulent to claim that the more expensive products are better.

S

 

[Mart68]

Naim streamer - £13K - add on power supply - another £7K.

For best sound they recommend two add on power supplies.

Naim ND 555/555 PS DR review

It’s expensive, but this music streamer sets new sonic standards

www.whathifi.com

For powering a streamer. Not even an amplifier. On what planet does that make sense?

Measurements or blind listening tests to back up the claims? Don't be silly.

Here's your 7 grand's worth:

 

[Purité Audio]

Naim’s indoctrination voodoo was particularly powerful.
Keith

 

[sq225917]

It's a specious argument. If naim want to make equipment that performs better and costs more by means of add on rather than a replacement model then have it. It in no way invalidates the cheaper item, or the choice to spend more. If it does SFA to performance then that's a diffetent matter.

It's no diffetent to swapping a cart to improve how a TT sounds.

 

[Mart68]

A streamer retailing for £13K should already be as good as it can possibly be.

If you went into a greengrocer and asked for a banana and he said 'That's ten pounds please' would you buy it?

No, because that's a ridiculous price for a single piece of fruit.

What's more if the banana is slightly bruised and you want one that isn't, he wants an extra fiver for it.

There's just no rational defence.

 

[sergeauckland]

It's a specious argument. If naim want to make equipment that performs better and costs more by means of add on rather than a replacement model then have it. It in no way invalidates the cheaper item, or the choice to spend more. If it does SFA to performance then that's a diffetent matter.

It's no diffetent to swapping a cart to improve how a TT sounds.

The problem with this is the question of whether the add-ons do actually improve the audible performance, or even the measured performance. I'm not at all convinced they do, in any meaningful way. Naim haven't been known for their support of objective listening tests.

S.

 

[Greenman]

streamer retailing for £13K should already be as good as it can possibly be.

So would you like to give us your top prices for other products please, Speakers? Amps? TVs? cars?

, a product should be inherently fit for purpose.

Which products aren’t fit for purpose?!

Naim haven't been known for their support of objective listening tests.

Naim have consistently supported a dealer network that gives personal demos of all their products. Users listen and make their own mind up, no one is being deceived in any way. Hear the benefit, evaluate the value and buy or not.

 

[CapMan]

Naim streamer - £13K - add on power supply - another £7K.

For best sound they recommend two add on power supplies.

Naim ND 555/555 PS DR review

It’s expensive, but this music streamer sets new sonic standards

www.whathifi.com

For powering a streamer. Not even an amplifier. On what planet does that make sense?

Measurements or blind listening tests to back up the claims? Don't be silly.

Here's your 7 grand's worth:

How about leaf springs under the circuit boards ?