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And We Thought High End Dealers Were Bad…?

Place this in the category of “ sharing bad audio experiences.”

Remember those times long ago when we actually had high-end audio stores to visit and check out gear? Fortunately, in my city, there are still a number of those. But I know they have disappeared in large part especially outside the bigger cities.

Anyway, thinking back on those times…

I just came across a very old post of mine - from 2001 - on an old audio forum. It detailed a day of perusing the mid-fi/lower end audio/video stores in my city around 2001. It’s wild reading it because every single bizarre moment came back vividly to my memory.

I posted here mainly as a discussion point, for anybody who wants to muse about their old (or new) experiences in audio stores.

......


Just had to vent. Can anyone commiserate? Or am I just "out of touch" :)

'Auditioning' audio gear at a store has always been more or less a ridiculous proposition, bordering on useless.
 
'Auditioning' audio gear at a store has always been more or less a ridiculous proposition, bordering on useless.

Why would that be?

I have found your claim to be obviously untrue in my own experience.

Through auditioning many different loudspeakers in different stores I came to understand their performance with the type of music I listen to.

Some of those loudspeakers I ended up owning, and they had just the characteristics in my own home that I identified and enjoyed in the store auditions.

I would have lost out on some of my favourite loudspeakers if I believed a claim like yours.
 
I'm shocked.

I'm glad you got lucky.

I must’ve got really, really lucky!

I’ve had a large variety of loudspeakers in my room over the past 30 years, Whether I owned them, or was trying them out, or whether I was reviewing them.

The vast majority of those speakers ended up in my room because I had first heard them elsewhere - either had an audio show, auditioned at a dealer, or in the home of another audiophile.

And every single one showed essentially the same characteristics in my room that I had heard elsewhere.

It’s not luck.

As Toole points out we have the ability to
“ hear through” a room to the direct sound, and so we can detect similar characteristics in a voice or loudspeaker from room to room.

Of course below (if I’m remembering properly) the Schroeder Frequency the sound becomes more influenced by room nodes. But frankly, I haven’t found that to be a big deal. Like most audiophiles I’ve been able to adjust speaker and listening positions in my room to achieve relatively smooth perceived response…even if some nodes stick out more obviously here and there.

And since a good high end store usually allows me some flexibility, I play with speaker and listening position to smooth out the sound, and usually re-create my own distance and spacing from the speakers that I would use at home. And if a loudspeaker achieves sufficiently even tight bass under those conditions, I find I get similar performance in my room.
 
I'm glad you got lucky, and I'm glad you think your ears and room were/are darn good and that an in-store audition exemplifies the phenomenon Toole writes about. ISTR he and his student also wrote a fair amount about how various biases affect loudspeaker preference.

And, too, loudspeakers aren't the only thing audiophiles 'audition' in stores.

But never miss an opportunity to post 100 words in response to 10. Now you've really got your work cut out for you.
 
But never miss an opportunity to post 100 words in response to 10. Now you've really got your work cut out for you.

Well, you claimed that auditioning loudspeakers in a store is ridiculous and borderline useless… without actually making any case for why that is so. I gave some reasons to doubt your claim, and you still haven’t given any reason to support your initial claim. Tossing in words like “luck” and “bias” don’t cohere in to counter arguments at this point.

Would you like to tell us exactly why you think auditioning speakers in stores is ridiculous and borderline useless?

(I hope that was short enough for you)
 
Well, you claimed that auditioning loudspeakers in a store is ridiculous and borderline useless…

Actually I claimed that "'Auditioning' audio gear at a store has always been more or less a ridiculous proposition, bordering on useless."

I.e., loudspeakers included but not exclusively. Please read more accurately, if you must.
 
Actually I claimed that "'Auditioning' audio gear at a store has always been more or less a ridiculous proposition, bordering on useless."

I.e., loudspeakers included but not exclusively. Please read more accurately, if you must.


Obviously loudspeakers were included in the term “ audio gear” and since I found your claim to be false in the case of loudspeakers, that’s the example I chose to discuss.

So are you ever going to tell us why you include loudspeakers in your claim, and why it is ridiculous or borderline useless to audition them at a store?

Or is the hand-waving just going to continue?
 
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I'd call auditioning in a store of minimal help myself. Depends on how they have it setup particularly of course but the chances it doesn't relate to your own room are high. Much rather just audition in my own rooms/setup(s) I'll be using them in (as well as budget, fit, etc). Let alone the mind games you automatically employ by "shopping"
 
1994: went to reputable hifi shop in the dc area, was given ample time to audition aerial acoustics 7, thiels, and something else for over an hour in a really good listening room. bought the aerial 7 that day. had them for many years, loved them. sold the house in 2005, and they conveyed with the house at buyer’s request! Next house got custom built with a media room designed around the Linkwitz Orion. I still have the design drawings I prepared to give those beauties breathing room.
 
I'd call auditioning in a store of minimal help myself. Depends on how they have it setup particularly of course but the chances it doesn't relate to your own room are high. Much rather just audition in my own rooms/setup(s) I'll be using them in (as well as budget, fit, etc). Let alone the mind games you automatically employ by "shopping"

Out of curiosity, how have you tried or bought equipment? Do you purchase to try in your home? Or buy used to try out? Or just buy on specs or measurements?

(I’ve bought used gear to try in my home a number of times, though I was always careful to buy something that I knew I could resell for the same amount if it didn’t work out).
 
Evaluation in your own space is obviously best, odd tonality and bass extension should be evident even in store.
Keith
 
Some time ago I wanted to have a listen to the KEF Blades to see what all the fuss was about. I looked up KEF dealers in Melbourne and found two. I emailed the shop that was closer to me and asked if I could come and have a listen. I was told that the speakers were at the distributor, they would have it in the shop in a week, then they'll let me know. I waited two weeks, then emailed them again. I was told there were some complications, probably another week. I waited another 2 weeks and emailed them again. I was told the same thing.

Fair enough, can't blame the dealer for problems with the distributor. So I waited a bit, and emailed them again. They stopped responding to my emails!!! If they won't respond to me even before I buy, I wonder what the after-sales service would be like??

I was really annoyed, so I contacted the other KEF dealer - Sight and Sound Galleria. They said "come in, we have them in the shop! How would you like us to set it up?". I gave them a description of my room. They asked if I wanted to bring my amps. I declined. They said they would hook it up with an amp "similar to mine". When I got there, it was perfectly set up in a room slightly smaller than mine. The salesman handed me the iPad, some coffee, then told me I can listen as long as I like and he's outside if I need him. And he really did leave me alone, only popping in now and then to ask if I want more coffee. We had a nice chat afterwards and there was zero sales pressure. I politely ignored everything he said about how the KEF was "sensitive to speaker cable quality" because he was such a nice guy. He offered a home evaluation. Ended up not buying them, but I thought I would give them a shout out.
 
Home evaluation is where I draw the line between pros and real pros.
Usually for a fee as a newbie but free as the relationship grows but usually at their own time for the later.

What's interesting is how easy is for them to carry and setup 120 kg speakers, heavy amps, etc.
Lots of practice I guess.
 
Last time I bought speakers in a store was in 1996. Just moved to a place with much smaller room, already sold my towers, had a sub so was looking for something small to go with it, for a couple of hundred,

Only two dealers in town at that time and I was familiar with one of them and I already knew from experience that they were not interested in punters who were not wanting a full multi-room install so thought I'd try the other one. Just a small shop but there was a manager and three younger salesmen all lounging about, no other customers.

Told the manager what I was after and he just vaguely waved in the direction of some shelves 'Over there' and went back to his paperwork. But one of the youngsters came over and started asking me the right questions, I explained I wanted something to match the sub. He identified two models, got some stands, got the speakers down off the shelves and started setting them up for me.

While he's doing this the other two and the manager are openly laughing at him for going to all this effort. Quite astonishing behaviour. But he got a sale.

Next time I went in was to buy an amp, only the manager in there that time. Again he just waves to the shelves with amps on. I did buy one but only because I was in a hurry and didn't want to be running about all over just for an amp. When I told him which amp I wanted to buy he actually sighed and made out that processing the sale for me was a big inconvenience for him.

The shop went bust and closed not long after.
 
With the background of grown under 'developed socialism' the worst hi-fi dealer looks Santa Klaus to me :D
Cassette player with detachable speakers was the golden middle of the audifilism until my eighteen .
 
ta240 wrote;

I’m a bit embarrassed to admit that long ago I used to work in a furniture store. The owner was a good guy and a very good salesman. He taught me to not approach a customer unless I saw them *touch* an item for sale. When they touch something they are really interested.

One time, a woman was looking at a Thai-style devotional statue in a prayerful pose. After she reached out and touched the piece, I cautiously approached her and said, “She’s praying that somebody will buy her!”
:)
One day a woman in Harrods was looking at a diamond necklace, with no price tag on it. As she bent over to take a closer look, she farted.

Immediately, a voice from behind her said, 'Can I help you Madam'.

Flustered, and wondering if the shop assistant had heard her fart, she said, 'Er, er, I was just wondering about the price'.

'Well Madam', said the shop assistant,
'If just wondering about the price causes you to fart, I'm afraid that if I actually told you the price you'd shit yourself'.
 
Place this in the category of “ sharing bad audio experiences.”

Remember those times long ago when we actually had high-end audio stores to visit and check out gear? Fortunately, in my city, there are still a number of those. But I know they have disappeared in large part especially outside the bigger cities.

Anyway, thinking back on those times…

I just came across a very old post of mine - from 2001 - on an old audio forum. It detailed a day of perusing the mid-fi/lower end audio/video stores in my city around 2001. It’s wild reading it because every single bizarre moment came back vividly to my memory.

I posted here mainly as a discussion point, for anybody who wants to muse about their old (or new) experiences in audio stores.

—————————-

Date: June/2001

THE HORROR: A day in mid-fi shopping Hell…

(...Or "How I learned to re-appreciate high-end dealers." )


Spent the day at various low/mid-fi AV shops. What was I doing there? Checking out TV sets mostly - might be replacing mine soon. Also, I kept my eye out for any interesting low-budget audio gems.

Ok, I admit it: I'm spoiled. I have some pretty good high-end dealers where I live. But I have to say, even some of my worst high-end dealer experiences (usually out of town) don't compare to the shallowness and brusque attitude exhibited by the characters who sell mid-fi gear.

I drove to a street lined with AV and Consumer Electronics superstores (and some smaller AV stores), so I was able to hit quite a few places in a row.

The first store: I walk in, stand in front of a TV looking at the picture for less than thirty seconds, and the store manager walks up to me saying:

"Is this the model you want?"
I have no time to answer.
"Make me an offer! You can walk out of here with it right now"
I say "Hold on a sec, I'd like to look at the various models for a moment."
He snorts: "Oh, that's not how we work. You make us an offer, you can walk out with a TV right now. Let's make a deal!"
"But I haven't even looked at any TVs yet."
He snorts again, shakes his head and walks away pissed off.

Any technical questions I had were answered with a long cold stare, followed by a mumbled single, unhelpful word or two. It was clear that any customer who did not walk into his store already committed to buying one of his TVs was simply not worth the breath it takes to form
words. I left this place quickly.

Next Store: A little nicer looking. Neater layout, and they had the Sony XBR and Panasonic Tau I'd been wanting to investigate. But, as was the case for virtually every AV store I walked into - even those with pretensions to a "higher-end" atmosphere - all the TVs had pictures that were horribly out of adjustment. I mean, simple things like the brightness turned way up or way down, and most often the color turned up so incredibly high that the screens looked like three-year-olds were hired to colorize the images - color bleed like hell.

Yet, as usual, the salesman were leaning on the sales counter chatting away to each other (it was not a busy time of day). Now, if I were selling TV sets it seems to me that, at *some* point in the day, I would take a break from chatting to walk around to inspect the sets on display. And I'd take that god damned one minute to actually adjust the picture so that all the expensive televisions I was trying to sell DIDN'T LOOK LIKE A PILE OF SHIT! I dunno, maybe that's just me. But I just couldn't believe this fundamental blunder blighted almost every store I visited.

Anyway, I make the mistake of asking the gum-chewing salesman a question. He swaggers over, snapping his gum. "What can I do for you, guy?"
I ask him a question about the difference between two Sony TVs. He launches into a bunch of BS that I can easily tell he is fumbling and faking through. The best part is that every time he makes a point about the TV he does it by placing his hand on the screen: "Now this set..(hand hits screen, pulls away leaving big smear).."this is the newest model, whereas this one.." Jabs fingers over and over along screen, mottling the glass with fingerprints, "is kind of old technology now, I wouldn't feel good about selling it to you really." This guy massacres each screen this way - and I can't help but notice every time he takes me over to a new model I can see his hand prints all over the screen from previous sales pitches, even before he adds a fresh layer of grime. The guy occasionally caught me chuckling to myself everytime he ruined a screen, but didn't catch on. (BTW, two other sales guys at other stores did the same thing).
Well, hard to tell what those TVs really look like, so on to the next store...

This next store had many speakers for sale. And HEY, LOOK AT THAT! It's the little Sound Dynamics RTS-3 stand mounted speaker, the much raved about giant killer I've always wanted to hear. But, of course, it's sitting on stands inches underneath a shelf lined with receivers, squeezed between many other sets of speakers. I ask for a listen. The salesman says "sure," and walks over with a CD. I have some CDs of my own (just in case), which gets me a wary, impatient look from the salesman. He starts playing my CD through the RTS-3 speakers and I point out to him the speakers are not going to sound quite their best while recessed two feet underneath a shelving unit (I could barely even see the speakers). I said I'd like to also check out their imaging. He sighed, grudgingly pulled them out a bit - they were placed about three feet apart at best - and began playing my cd again. I had to kneel to get level with the speakers, and the salesman stood DIRECTLY BETWEEN the speakers, each speaker being just outside each leg, with his hand dangling at his side in front of me, loudly clicking his pen in and out over and over while he stared into space. How was the imaging? Well...like a guy's waist, as far as I could ascertain. Sound? Who knows? Like sort of like a pen clicking, I guess. The guy would occasionally look down at me with a
slightly puzzled look, wondering why I was staring at his waist between the speakers. He just was not catching any hints, so I finally told him to move out of the way. That was the last I saw of him. The Sound Dynamics speakers were impossible to audition in that set-up. Off I go...

I visited several other stores. Rows and rows of speakers squished beside each other, booming away. Receivers eq'd into the "smile" pattern, blasting distorting R+B radio signals. And tirelessly pushy sales guys who always do all the talking, never asking questions, always steering me only to the product they're told to sell that day:
"This is the one you want to buy, trust me. Will that be cash or charge?"

I suppose my sensibilities have been made tender by patronizing only the finest and fairest of my local high-end dealers (and others in North America). But my God, what a truly awful auditioning/buying environment it is that greets the average consumer looking for a new TV or stereo system. I suppose this is the end result of viewing audio systems as a commodity. Stack receivers and speakers up like microwaves; consumers are to make their choices before they enter the store, armed with a Consumer Reports review, or advertisement specs and a horrid demo to go on.

Yeah, I know that it's hardly news that the low/mid-fi emporiums are just plain silly. But it's still a bit shocking every time I enter one of these shark ponds to purchase an item. In contrast, my recent visits to some high end dealers were informative, amiable and relaxing - much more conducive to a satisfying purchase.

Just had to vent. Can anyone commiserate? Or am I just "out of touch" :)
I had some positive experiences at "High End" audio stores in the distant past. Recently went to a "Best Buy" for something smartphone related. They had some "name" audio gear, like Marantz, but there was no way to properly audition the Polks they were connected to in that store. I remember Pacific Stereo from the 1970s, noisy place but fun and usually the cheapest outlet in town for a given piece of gear. Some had "High-End" rooms, there were a lot of Pacific Stereo outlets back then.
 
I had some positive experiences at "High End" audio stores in the distant past. Recently went to a "Best Buy" for something smartphone related. They had some "name" audio gear, like Marantz, but there was no way to properly audition the Polks they were connected to in that store. I remember Pacific Stereo from the 1970s, noisy place but fun and usually the cheapest outlet in town for a given piece of gear. Some had "High-End" rooms, there were a lot of Pacific Stereo outlets back then.
I don't think of any of those as "High End" audio stores. Some were 'big box stores" and others were "audio shops." High end was(!) another story.
 
I don't think of any of those as "High End" audio stores. Some were 'big box stores" and others were "audio shops." High end was(!) another story.
I was describing "mid-fi" and big box stores. Had a lot of good experiences at db audio in Berkeley, they essentially sold high-end goods (I got my Stax Lambda Pro/SRM T-1 energizer/amplifier there). The closest they got to mid-fi were Nad amps and Rega turntables. They had a Keith Monks record cleaning machine they let you use for $1 an LP. Used that a lot.
 
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