Cheapest Full Range 20hz - 20khz Speakers?

[RayDunzl]

Physics experiment:









I got 95dB SPL at 6.5Hz here.










Measured at the listening position.

By wiggling the palm of my hand as quickly as I could with the least movement I could in front of the mic.









Lots of harmonic distortion, though.









Not sure I I could hear it, but sure felt it!

 

[TankTop]

?

I'm not sure I follow.

Well they make a lot of noise, they may even make a lot of noise between 20Hz and 20,000Hz.

 

[richard12511]

DSP still operates within the realm of physics, essentially converting extra power into deeper bass. Keeps seeming like you're insinuating that it's cheating, fake, not operating in the realm of physics... Just think if it as a fully analogue, perfect EQ, and add some power, and the Phantoms can handle that, unlike most any other speaker. It all goes hand in hand.

You're missing the point. Use whatever word you like, it doesn't matter, my point was that even if the phantom had no DSPed extension at all, you'd still have very, very impressive bass coming from 4" woofers. You seem to be caught up in my word choice and taking it as an offense of a speaker you like, when that was the exact opposite of what I was trying to say.

 

[richard12511]

Well they make a lot of noise, they may even make a lot of noise between 20Hz and 20,000Hz.

I guess I still don't follow. If you're making a joke, it's going over my head

 

[maverickronin]

I don’t have measured evidence to offer that pressurisation occurs in most rooms, but it’s definitely the case that the room’s modal region only stretches down to frequencies of wavelength twice the room’s largest dimension. So for a mode to exist at 20Hz or below, a room would need to have a dimension of around 8.5m or greater, which would make it larger than the average domestic room - at least here in Europe (perhaps this would be more common in the US?).

Are "open floor plan" houses a thing in Europe? They're somewhat popular in new construction here. You can get 10m along one axis pretty easily in a house like that.

 

[richard12511]

@TankTop I went back and read your initial reply, and I'm still lost haha.

I said: "4 inch drivers that can take 3000W are very impressive"

you responded with: "After you listen to Devialet. "

Are you suggesting that the spec is wrong? That would be my interpretation? Apologies for not understanding.

 

[MarcT]

How close does the PSB Imagine T3 come to the OP's requested bass response? PSB claims 24Hz +/-3dB.

 

[dfuller]

Honest question: Why do you even want 20hz? Speaking from experience here, there's very little musical content below about 30Hz and even then that's an edge case.

 

[TankTop]

@TankTop I went back and read your initial reply, and I'm still lost haha.

I said: "4 inch drivers that can take 3000W are very impressive"

you responded with: "After you listen to Devialet. "

Are you suggesting that the spec is wrong? That would be my interpretation? Apologies for not understanding.

Maybe they do what they say, but after you listen to them you will never want to listen to them again as they sound terrible.

 

[richard12511]

Maybe they do what they say, but after you listen to them you will never want to listen to them again as they sound terrible.

Aha. I understand now. I've never heard them, tbh.

 

[richard12511]

Honest question: Why do you even want 20hz? Speaking from experience here, there's very little musical content below about 30Hz and even then that's an edge case.

Depends on how much pop/electronic music you listen to. There's pop/electronic music that goes sub 10hz, and it feels awesome!!! You can't hear it, but you can feel the individual sine waves passing through your body. I love it.

 

[richard12511]

@stevenswall while in the shower, I thought of a better word and better way to make the distinction that I was trying to make. Instead of fake extension vs real extension, how about relative extension vs absolute extension? Absolute extension would be similar to the 2010 standard, that is, "how loud can you play a 15Hz sine wave while maintaining less than 10% distortion?". Relative extension would be "what is your -3dB point?", "what is your -6dB point?" DSP can be used to drastically improve relative extension, but not so much for absolute extension.

My point in making the distinction in the first place was only to say that the Phantom not only has great relative extension, it actually has great absolute extension(as evidenced by it besting the 12" Emotiva sub by 10dB at 20Hz). I was curious how the heck they were able to do this with such a small enclosure and small woofers. Andreas answered my question. Basically, really well engineered drivers, and a shit load of power.

 

[stevenswall]

Interesting. 4" drivers that can take 3000W is impressive on its own.

Note: 900w peak for the Phantom Reactor that has 4" drivers, 3000w peak for the Phantom Gold, which is 6.5" if I recall correctly.

 

[detlev24]

Honest question: Why do you even want 20hz? Speaking from experience here, there's very little musical content below about 30Hz and even then that's an edge case.

Besides for electronic music or movie explosions, some people like to listen to pipe organ / contrabassoon / harp recordings; some of the instruments, which have their fundamentals reach down to below 30 Hz.

[...] 3000w peak for the Phantom Gold, which is 6.5" if I recall correctly.

4500 W peak for the 'Gold Phantom', although it's impossible to get so much power out of a standard outlet, which the Phantoms are built for, since W = V x A.

 

[tuga]

And this is exactly, where the 'JBL M2' do shine.

Of course, keeping in mind that "audio fidelity" is defined by a flat frequency response, low noise and low distortion.

And clean decay and group-delay and... The M2s are ported speakers and use a single driver for the whole sub-bass to mid-mids.
Perhaps it's one of the reasons why it wasn't preferred over the Ultima Salon2?

Most speakers do fine with Barbie or Krell and their trio, but try an orchestra with a hundred intruments playing together with a choir, or an organ. A lot more discriminating of the good, the bad and the ugly.

 

[rfeng]

Magnat Monitor Supreme 2002

• Price:€205/each
• Frequency range: 18 - 40,000 Hz
  https://www.amazon.de/-/en/D14481031-Magnat-Monitor-Supreme/dp/B00GUGD992/
  

 

[andreasmaaan]

Note: 900w peak for the Phantom Reactor that has 4" drivers, 3000w peak for the Phantom Gold, which is 6.5" if I recall correctly.

It’s actually very hard to find meaningful specs on any of the Phantom models. My 3kW spec came from the original white paper, in which the woofers were stated to be 4”, but perhaps they fudged it a bit there by describing the construction and woofers in terms of the Reactor and then giving amp power specs for both the Reactor (where it was stated as 750W) and the Silver.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Are "open floor plan" houses a thing in Europe? They're somewhat popular in new construction here. You can get 10m along one axis pretty easily in a house like that.

In cities, apartments are the norm (at least in Germany). Modern, luxury apartments tend to be more open-plan, but the majority of apartments are not IME. I’ve only been here for 7 years though, and only lived in one city

 

[ttimer]

4500 W peak for the 'Gold Phantom', although it's impossible to get so much power out of a standard outlet, which the Phantoms are built for, since W = V x A.

Keep in mind that those figures are for short peaks, powered by capacitors. If it was continuous, there would be no way to shed the heat and all Phantoms would burn out in seconds.

Regarding the initial question, Nuberts Nuvero 170 with the bass extension module will go down to 22hz (-3db) for 7500€ a pair. Still not cheap, but sub 5-digits.

 

[detlev24]

And clean decay and group-delay and... The M2s are ported speakers and use a single driver for the whole sub-bass to mid-mids.
Perhaps it's one of the reasons why it wasn't preferred over the Ultima Salon2? [...]

Both the metrics you mentioned are really just a part of the three parameters I previously listed; that define (high) "audio fidelity". If we wanted to start nitpicking, 'time-based errors' would be the forth and very last category to consider. I did not mention the domain of time-based errors, as they are the least audible in today's digital world and usually not a problem.

The (audible) main differences between the (DSP-driven) 'JBL M2' and the 'Revel Ultima2 Salon2' are as follows:
(-) narrower dispersion
(-) lower directivity [anechoic] at HF
(+) wider optimal listening window
(+) lower distortion at higher max. SPL

If I recall correctly [please correct me, if I'm wrong], the listening experience you are referring to has not been conducted scientifically by any means and thus cannot be reproduced. Dr. Floyd Toole mentioned it might have been the wider dispersion of the Salon2, which ultimately got it a few more votes but again, we have no precise information about the listeners' seat arrangements, the listeners' (audio) background and the room itself; which all are very important facts to take into account for reasoning.

The 'JBL M2' is a least-compromise design and "good enough" for audio professionals who record, mix and master the music - including 'classical' genres - we, "audiophiles", love to listen to. It is a bit hard to imagine that Dr. Sean Olive and his team did opt for this design if it was "crippled" that much; especially when taking the protocol into account they follow at HARMAN, before a (reference) loudspeaker receives its final pass-mark.

However, the most important thing is that we still enjoy the music - more than our gear!