Making my own full range 20hz speaker vs add dual subs to my floorstanding speaker

[Salt]

At first: You need to determine Your needs If not, it's all speculation.
Examples:

- Want to go on with amps used now, You need more amps and an active crossover in front of it for that
- Want to go for multi-channel-amp, skip Your amp and use that, if sufficient filtering is provided
- use plate amps with integrated DSP for filters and skip (sell) Your amps

For me the latter is what I do.

And if You want to build on Your own: put the bass on left and right (opposite), choose a driver with low fs and Vas (what will mean low SPL) for closed cabinets, what means smaller enclosures, or do some science experiments using software (that gives some narrow approximation, but never the result as reality measurements will provide).

Crossover with LR4 at 100-120Hz and 3500-5000 Hz rsp. , depending on driver's capability, should do the job, besides DPL approximation, if necessary.

Just the frame ....

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Just me, but I would and do use subs. BTW, SVS currently is offering it's all time best seller, the SB 2000 for $500, an all time low. So you could add a pair of 20 hz capable woofers for $1000. And the OG SV 2000 has a high pass filter as well as a low pass, so a complete crossover system. The high pass is a 12 db octave butterworth (I think) at 80 hz, which makes it ideal for a whole lot of mini monitors (like LS 50 variants) which have a natural 12 db rolloff below around 100 hz, so the high pass adds up to 24 db octave as a result.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Just me, but I would and do use subs. BTW, SVS currently is offering it's all time best seller, the SB 2000 for $500, an all time low. So you could add a pair of 20 hz capable woofers for $1000. And the OG SV 2000 has a high pass filter as well as a low pass, so a complete crossover system. The high pass is a 12 db octave butterworth (I think) at 80 hz, which makes it ideal for a whole lot of mini monitors (like LS 50 variants) which have a natural 12 db rolloff below around 100 hz, so the high pass adds up to 24 db octave as a result.

The thing is, the goal in my case is having an aggresive high pass. I don't wanna my towers to make subbass, because i don't wanna let the towers use the ports in the back. This is good for IMD an also for placement in the room.
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Seems to be a bit complicated to let the main only do 80hz-20khz, such a simple product apparently is hard to find... apparently DACs doesn't going to be better the last years apparently, only overengineering in the not-hearing range with no feature, and unnecessary features like headphone output (some)

To me the best solution should be a dac/pre (3-4 Vrms) with 2 output for subwoofers, with 12/24/48dB crossovers.
There is good stuff by minidsp or anothers external things, but i prefer to buy a dac/pre who do the things that i specify above.
Having some delay while i use the subwoofers is a nice feature, for the time-alignment stuff.


I kind of don't like the minidsp stuff, because i said previously I had a bad experience with the high-end minidsp thing. The setup was, topping d90+minidsp shd+accuphase+kef reference 3 and the problem in the right channel that i described previously

 

[waynel]

I need a thing for the crossover, the dsp is not important because i and i will always use my PC as source
Dac/pre/crossover is what i need, the dsp doesnt matter because i use ApoEQ in windows

Why not use your PC to do the crossover and send over USB to a Okto DAC8 pro?

PC (DSP and Crossover) -> USB -> Okto DAC8pro -> Amps and subs.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Why not use your PC to do the crossover and send over USB to a Okto DAC8 pro?

PC (DSP and Crossover) -> USB -> Okto DAC8pro -> Amps and subs.

Hmm, seems to be a nice idea and that dac cost 1200 Euros. Not crazy price but i have to sell my currently dac.



I guess, but with ApoEQ there is a setting for low pass/high pass filters, i also think i can run multiples channels with ApoEQ and (the okto8pro seems to support that).. sounds like a very good idea.

I also think the apoEQ also has a time delay thing, never tryed that.
I'm only using ApoEQ for room correction

 

[waynel]

Hmm, seems to be a nice idea and that dac cost 1200 Euros. Not crazy price but i have to sell my currently dac.



I guess, but with ApoEQ there is a setting for low pass/high pass filters, i also think i can run multiples channels with ApoEQ and (the okto8pro seems to support that).. sounds like a very good idea.

I also think the apoEQ also has a time delay thing, never tryed that.
I'm only using ApoEQ for room correction

Another option: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-dm7-8-channel-dac-review.35661/
I like the volume knob and additional flexibility of the Okto though.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Another option: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-dm7-8-channel-dac-review.35661/
I like the volume knob and additional flexibility of the Okto though.

i hadnt thought about doing it throught my computer lol, im pretty sure i can put a very aggersive filter into my mains with ApoEQ. lol.





I don't know if theokto measure flawless like these Topping, but yeah a multi channel dac + my computer is the best idea lol.



What i don't like about the Okto is the headphone thing. Why they keep with that thing.
That was a nice idea.

 

[waynel]

i hadnt thought about doing it throught my computer lol, im pretty sure i can put a very aggersive filter into my mains with ApoEQ. lol.





I don't know if theokto measure flawless like these Topping, but yeah a multi channel dac + my computer is the best idea lol.



What i don't like about the Okto is the headphone thing. Why they keep with that thing.
That was a nice idea.

the Okto DAC8 Pro measures very well

Review and Measurements of Okto DAC8 8Ch DAC & Amp

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Okto Research DAC8 8-channel DAC and headphone amplifier. I was sent a prototype unit for measurements. From my understanding, the company has been producing the internal DAC module for a while for the DIY market. But now are building complete...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Just a question how is APO detecting the ''available inputs''?

For example, i use the LEFT & RIGHT, but there is also

Center

Surround

Subwoofer

And I also can add mores



I just need to test whatever of these are and just change the name to Sub1 and Sub2?

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Why not use your PC to do the crossover and send over USB to a Okto DAC8 pro?

PC (DSP and Crossover) -> USB -> Okto DAC8pro -> Amps and subs.

Exactly what I do. Use Dirac to set the xover.

 

[test1223]

Just a question how is APO detecting the ''available inputs''?

For example, i use the LEFT & RIGHT, but there is also

Center

Surround

Subwoofer

And I also can add mores



I just need to test whatever of these are and just change the name to Sub1 and Sub2?

I used such a setup with equalizer APO some years ago it worked really good. But I had two issues.
Fist with some updates you loose the connection to equaliser apo without any warning and you have to reestablish equalizer apo manually.
Second there is some software which auto detects a "surround setup" and used it as such like some games. I didn't find a work around for this since no options using stereo in these specific games works as expected.
Both issues alone are not perfect and the combination of both issues introduced a risk for the tweeter which I was using without any passive crossover part.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I used such a setup with equalizer APO some years ago it worked really good. But I had two issues.
Fist with some updates you loose the connection to equaliser apo without any warning and you have to reestablish equalizer apo manually.
Second there is some software which auto detects a "surround setup" and used it as such like some games. I didn't find a work around for this since no options using stereo in these specific games works as expected.
Both issues alone are not perfect and the combination of both issues introduced a risk for the tweeter which I was using without any passive crossover part.

The first problem is easy to me, took me 3 min. Not a problem for me, since the configuration saved.
The second issue i haven't see that, im using apo for around 5 years~

 

[test1223]

The first problem is easy to me, took me 3 min. Not a problem for me, since the configuration saved.
The second issue i haven't see that, im using apo for around 5 years~

The issue of ignoring the equalizer apo routing by the software occurred with all? Unreal Engine 3 games like mass effect 2, so a bit older games. I was trying to solve it from the software side and found some clues there but couldn't solve it. In the end I was using a digital out and in route with the windows monitoring sound setting to get rid of it and it was annoying since I have to switch some settings and cables to do it.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

The issue of ignoring the equalizer apo routing by the software occurred with all? Unreal Engine 3 games like mass effect 2, so a bit older games. I was trying to solve it from the software side and found some clues there but couldn't solve it. In the end I was using a digital out and in route with the windows monitoring sound setting to get rid of it and it was annoying since I have to switch some settings and cables to do it.

I havent had that issue with any game
I always use the apoEQ with my speakers or headphones, i have a profile for both
If im correct lost ark is Ue3, no problem even with older ones

 

[test1223]

I havent had that issue with any game
I always use the apoEQ with my speakers or headphones, i have a profile for both
If im correct lost ark is Ue3, no problem even with older ones

It occurred only if use equalizer apo as a digital crossover by using multiple virtual stereo outputs by copying the left and right channel with apo and route them to the multichannel outputs. The unreal engine assumed you use a multichannel setup and ignores the apo routing but applies all other filters to the channels.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

It occurred only if use equalizer apo as a digital crossover by using multiple virtual stereo outputs by copying the left and right channel with apo and route them to the multichannel outputs. The unreal engine assumed you use a multichannel setup and ignores the apo routing but applies all other filters to the channels.

Oh i see
I havent use the apo as digital crosover;(
Good luck tryng to find a solution for that

 

[Sokel]

the results were great but atfter seeing the Marchand review measurements were below average I am not sure how much I was loosing from the 70ish DB SINAD.

What kind of Marchand had 70db SINAD?

Here's an old XM9 (I have some analog x-overs here,I intend to make a thread with some measurements) with NOT ideal conditions (6 meter cable,VERY limited,ancient measuring EMU as signal generator-recording (it's own loop is about 101db SINAD),etc,the rest is all on the screenshots.)

First at 80Hz as people use them there often:



And 1Khz



Decent I think.

Disclaimer:NOT perfect conditions,NOT comparable to measurements one can do with a nice E1DA,etc

Edit:the fun part about measuring a crossover is that one measurement can tell lot of things.
(can you see the filter and FR here,apart from the multitone perfomance?)

 

[test1223]

Oh i see
I havent use the apo as digital crosover;(
Good luck tryng to find a solution for that

Thanks. I changed the set-up a while ago I would highly recommend to try an equalizer APO digital crossover with the exact hardware and software for some time since there are some constellations which aren't working at all or aren't working as expected.

I am now using Hypex FA plate amps they are really great. The ability of using very complex filters like FIR filter with equalizer apo is something I am missing a bit, but all in all the Hypex soltution is very clean and good sounding.

 

[Trdat]

What kind of Marchand had 70db SINAD?

Here's an old XM9 (I have some analog x-overs here,I intend to make a thread with some measurements) with NOT ideal conditions (6 meter cable,VERY limited,ancient measuring EMU as signal generator-recording (it's own loop is about 101db SINAD),etc,the rest is all on the screenshots.)

Marchand XM44 Analog Active Crossover Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marchand XM44-3 3-way Analog Active Crossover. It is on kind loan from a member. This is a modular 3-way system. As configured, it costs US $1,900. So not cheap. Question the owner had was how it compares to a digital crossover which he also...

www.audiosciencereview.com

although Amir does mention he doesn't want to pass judgement, I myself do not fully understand the audibility or the effect of this crossover in the signal chain. Please let me know your opinion, I would be interested? Actually one question I do have is if it is crossed over at 100hz how does the SINAD effect the rest of the frequency range?

I have the XM66 and I have kept it, I like the idea of an active to crossover subs. Audibly I don't see much difference between the Marantz or the Marchand if anything perhaps the Marcahand gave better SQ but thats just subjective.

I have moved on from this set up with state of the art FIR filters with seperate DAC and amp for each frequency range, for music at least this is the future(in my humble amatuer opinion).

 

[Sokel]

Marchand XM44 Analog Active Crossover Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marchand XM44-3 3-way Analog Active Crossover. It is on kind loan from a member. This is a modular 3-way system. As configured, it costs US $1,900. So not cheap. Question the owner had was how it compares to a digital crossover which he also...

www.audiosciencereview.com

although Amir does mention he doesn't want to pass judgement, I myself do not fully understand the audibility or the effect of this crossover in the signal chain. Please let me know your opinion, I would be interested? Actually one question I do have is if it is crossed over at 100hz how does the SINAD effect the rest of the frequency range?

I have the XM66 and I have kept it, I like the idea of an active to crossover subs. Audibly I don't see much difference between the Marantz or the Marchand if anything perhaps the Marcahand gave better SQ but thats just subjective.

I have moved on from this set up with state of the art FIR filters with seperate DAC and amp for each frequency range, for music at least this is the future(in my humble amatuer opinion).

The one I see in this review seems to have problems.something is off,if it was mine I would ask Phil Marchand about it,that's not normal.

I have tested (and measured) more than ten,ranging from 30 euro (also measured quite nicely,I made a thread about it,about 100db SINAD without special care,the opposite!) to 4K,including pro ones,miniDSP ones (last was flex which I returned,it's analog performance was bad low and it was the cause of the thread with the measurements I posted in first pages),even tube ones (it was DIY,from a friend and it was fun!)

As far as for SQ the only one thing I take care for after all that is noise,Marchand is of the silent ones,it's distortion is low as you can see,so...
The effect on highs can be seen on the 1Khz measurement,long story short,no effect.