Making my own full range 20hz speaker vs add dual subs to my floorstanding speaker

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Yeah, you mentioned that 'you know a guy' who had a miniDSP...
I have no idea what 'the A DD A thing' is though... You had mentioned 'huge weird thing in the lower bass', which sounds like the guy you knew had a ground loop, or other implementation problem. The noise and distortion on these devices is vanishingly low, and for sure your description indicates it wasn't working properly or wasn't being used properly.

I tryed for myself for looking if i can fix the problem when i visit his home, i cant.
The whole idea weas using his rel s510 with the reference, but the weird sound into the right speaker never was resolved. He cant and also me i couldnt find what was the problem.

The solution was just sell the thing. Anyway was the expensier thing, a thing in who just do a simple xcros and cost around 1500 usd shouldnt have a problem in the right channel.

Thats why im afraid of these stuff, my simple 2 channel system just work very well

 

[fineMen]

I have a small room... lef r7, i got 30hz 0dB, -6dB 25hz. ... i have planar headphones that goes to 20hz ... some music who has some synth and different stuff that actually goes to 20-30hz ...

Frankly spoken, cannot believe. but given you don't need a sub to begin with. Literally, I would start out with using an e/q on the mains, buy, steal or borrough. The expenses for a proper device of any brand should cost you the least compared to the other gear, and may serve for general e/q anyway. And as you are obviously proficient in measuring, there you are.

I withdraw my suggestion to not use a ported design. What would most probably help is a double vented bandpass - i mean it. Other than urban legend has it, they can e/q'ed to match any highest stadrad main speakers even if they are 'single note' designs, means of short bandwith. The group delay appears heft on paper, but once integrated the just fit: because speakers are minimum phase. Since you cannot buy it, build it. A simple 20cm (8") would do, really, if supported by closely tuned ports.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Frankly spoken, cannot believe. but given you don't need a sub to begin with. Literally, I would start out with using an e/q on the mains, buy, steal or borrough. The expenses for a proper device of any brand should cost you the least compared to the other gear, and may serve for general e/q anyway. And as you are obviously proficient in measuring, there you are.

I withdraw my suggestion to not use a ported design. What would most probably help is a double vented bandpass - i mean it. Other than urban legend has it, they can e/q'ed to match any highest stadrad main speakers even if they are 'single note' designs, means of short bandwith. The group delay appears heft on paper, but once integrated the just fit: because speakers are minimum phase. Since you cannot buy it, build it. A simple 20cm (8") would do, really, if supported by closely tuned ports

But the my r7 is dual 6.5” = 8”
Im already using in room EQ, my room gives me a nice low frequency reforment
I just want a flat 20hz, also adding a subwoofer will reduce the overall IMD
I think a dac/pre with subwoofer crossover built in plus dual rythmik f12 will be a simple and nice thing
I dont know, seeying how to making one of these big speakers seems to be like a lot of time

 

[Duke]

I'm seeying plenty of new drivers that look amazing, some from sb acoustics and purifi.
But the problem is still the same, 20hz!

Is that hard to make a speaker by myself or is just better buy a good 3-way speaker and then add dual subs?

Also, how can i cross the main speakers at 60~80hz?
Is not like my dac/pre has the feature for doing that, is there a good dac/pre with that feature ? dac/pre->power amp -> speakers?

The approach I use (disclaimer: commercially) is to design the main speakers with subwoofer usage already in mind, the intention being that the main speakers can be used without adding any high-pass filtering to the signal path.

In this scenario what the main speakers need to do is, go down just far enough to blend well with the subs; have inherent rolloff characteristics conducive to a good blend with the subs; and, have sufficient excursion-limited power handling that no high-pass filtering is needed at the anticipated maximum listening levels.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

The approach I use (disclaimer: commercially) is to design the main speakers with subwoofer usage already in mind, the intention being that the main speakers can be used without adding any high-pass filtering to the signal path.

In this scenario what the main speakers need to do is, go down just far enough to blend well with the subs; have inherent rolloff characteristics conducive to a good blend with the subs; and, have sufficient excursion-limited power handling that no high-pass filtering is needed at the anticipated maximum listening levels.

I just think if the mains only run 80hz-20khz you gain 3 things
Less imd distortion
Les h distortion
And you can put the speaker close to the wall because the ports would do nothing

 

[fineMen]

But the my r7 is dual 6.5” = 8”
...
I think a dac/pre with subwoofer crossover built in plus dual rythmik f12 will be a simple and nice thing ...

The capabilities of the Rs woofers are often underestimated. As the tuning is around 35Hz, which I've always seen as the golden spot, it limits the output down below severely. I always miss how demanding people are today, sorry for interferring.

 

[MAB]

Is that hard to make a speaker by myself or is just better buy a good 3-way speaker and then add dual subs?

Yes, very challenging to build a competent pair of mains. Especially since it seems you have great main speakers and amps already.
If you want performance to 20Hz, then yes a pair of subs would be great. You may also be able to manage room modes with placement of the two subs. The Rythmic F12 you mentioned look great. There are so many others.

Also, how can i cross the main speakers at 60~80hz?
Is not like my dac/pre has the feature for doing that, is there a good dac/pre with that feature ? dac/pre->power amp -> speakers?

I totally agree, your idea of a DAC/Pre with DSP is great.

The two that I have direct experience with are miniDSP and RME.
On a miniDSP Flex (for instance) you can implement crossover filters:

You can do complex filtering:

RME now has a user-friendly interface:

But the crossover on their Pro model is not flexible enough for my use, I don't think bass-management/speaker crossover is the primary concern for RME! The RME products are typically higher performance than miniDSP for what it's worth. I can't hear the difference as far as transparency.

If I ever bought a consumer subwoofer again, I would likely bypass the internal crossover and use a miniDSP or something similar. They are just too fun and intuitive and powerful. And, aside from your bad experience, sound astonishingly good.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Yes, very challenging to build a competent pair of mains. Especially since it seems you have great main speakers and amps already.
If you want performance to 20Hz, then yes a pair of subs would be great. You may also be able to manage room modes with placement of the two subs. The Rythmic F12 you mentioned look great. There are so many others.

I totally agree, your idea of a DAC/Pre with DSP is great.

The two that I have direct experience with are miniDSP and RME.
On a miniDSP Flex (for instance) you can implement crossover filters:
View attachment 309728
You can do complex filtering:
View attachment 309727

RME now has a user-friendly interface:
View attachment 309731
But the crossover on their Pro model is not flexible enough for my use, I don't think bass-management/speaker crossover is the primary concern for RME! The RME products are typically higher performance than miniDSP for what it's worth. I can't hear the difference as far as transparency.

If I ever bought a consumer subwoofer again, I would likely bypass the internal crossover and use a miniDSP or something similar. They are just too fun and intuitive and powerful. And, aside from your bad experience, sound astonishingly good.

Whats the model of the RMe?
Is a pre/dac? I dont need a huge power pre, just low line level, clean 3vrms for my purifi and outputs for the subwoofers
If the chain is
The new* (dac/pre/dsp) ->subs
(dac/pre/dsp)-> purifi eigentakt -> kefs
Sounds simple and nice to me

 

[Duke]

I just think if the mains only run 80hz-20khz you gain 3 things
Less imd distortion
Les h distortion

Distortion caused by large excursions can be minimized in the loudspeaker design itself, but realistically not with small midwoofers, unless used in large numbers. Sufficient cone area and favorable midwoofer parameters are called for.

By designing the main speakers to have sufficient cone area (and excursion) to not need a protective highpass filter, the use of one becomes optional.

To the best of my knowledge (which is incomplete), none of my customers who do not need a protective highpass filter have found that using one anyway is what they prefer.

 

[fineMen]

Distortion caused by large excursions can be minimized ...

Mine, stereo, sealed, 2 x 8" drivers each in 18liters of internal volume for the two drivers combined. They actually serve as a stand for my R3s and are driven by a modest 2 x 50Watt stereo AV amp, controlled digitally. They are recorded at 6m of a distance. The distortion is in part a problem of the amp. Anyway, at 50Hz it is down to an entirely safe 1% and below. (This is not the speaker I tested my own hearing with, see above.)

As they are used stereo they couple nicely with the R3s.

 

[Sokel]

Whats the model of the RMe?
Is a pre/dac? I dont need a huge power pre, just low line level, clean 3vrms for my purifi and outputs for the subwoofers
If the chain is
The new* (dac/pre/dsp) ->subs
(dac/pre/dsp)-> purifi eigentakt -> kefs
Sounds simple and nice to me

Depending the solution you will choose,you must always have in mind a "security" scheme,specially if you go with digital VC .
Either in line attenuators or something similar, to the point of your highest desired calculated peak (not average or max) power and no more.

You never know when a digital VC will "forget" it's setting or windows go to a BSOD with a glorious 0db all the way through.

 

[MAB]

Whats the model of the RMe?
Is a pre/dac? I dont need a huge power pre, just low line level, clean 3vrms for my purifi and outputs for the subwoofers
If the chain is
The new* (dac/pre/dsp) ->subs
(dac/pre/dsp)-> purifi eigentakt -> kefs
Sounds simple and nice to me

Yes, there are several RME models that are both DAC/Pre/DSP/Headphone amp. All are tremendous have tremendous DSP capabilities and performance, and can be used to varying degrees as a crossover. But I find them cumbersome and limited. Read here for instance:

How useful is the ADI-2 pro fs r as digital crossover? (Page 1) — ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series — RME User Forum

How useful is the ADI-2 pro fs r as digital crossover? (Page 1) — ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series — RME User Forum —

forum.rme-audio.de

Don't get me wrong, they are a fantastic device. The DSP is not optimized for use as a crossover.

One of the systems you describe:

As described here:

2.1 Sub integration + REW

miniDSP is a leading manufacturer of Digital Audio Signal Processors for the HomeTheater, Hifi, headphone and Automotive market. Join our large community of Audiophiles, Engineers and DIYers using our innovative products.

www.minidsp.com

I can't think of anything even dimly in this price range with this level of transparency, certainly not with the combination of features you want (outside of an AVR...)

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Yes, there are several RME models that are both DAC/Pre/DSP/Headphone amp. All are tremendous have tremendous DSP capabilities and performance, and can be used to varying degrees as a crossover. But I find them cumbersome and limited. Read here for instance:

How useful is the ADI-2 pro fs r as digital crossover? (Page 1) — ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series — RME User Forum

How useful is the ADI-2 pro fs r as digital crossover? (Page 1) — ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series — RME User Forum —

forum.rme-audio.de

Don't get me wrong, they are a fantastic device. The DSP is not optimized for use as a crossover.

One of the systems you describe:
View attachment 309744
As described here:

2.1 Sub integration + REW

miniDSP is a leading manufacturer of Digital Audio Signal Processors for the HomeTheater, Hifi, headphone and Automotive market. Join our large community of Audiophiles, Engineers and DIYers using our innovative products.

www.minidsp.com

I can't think of anything even dimly in this price range with this level of transparency, certainly not with the combination of features you want (outside of an AVR...)

I need a thing for the crossover, the dsp is not important because i and i will always use my PC as source
Dac/pre/crossover is what i need, the dsp doesnt matter because i use ApoEQ in windows

 

[radix]

There's also the Antimode X2 and X4.

The SHD and Flex are much better performing than the 2x4HD.

The SHD: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...sp-shd-review-updated-dsp-dac-streamer.18681/

The 2x4HD: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...urements-and-minidsp-2x4-hd-dsp-and-dac.2674/

There's a thread on crossovers: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nyone-reviewed-crossovers.43926/#post-1564358

 

[voodooless]

The SHD and Flex are much better performing than the 2x4HD.

The SHD: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...sp-shd-review-updated-dsp-dac-streamer.18681/

The 2x4HD: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...urements-and-minidsp-2x4-hd-dsp-and-dac.2674/

That should no longer be the case. The latest 2x4HD should be basically on par with the others.

 

[waynel]

That should no longer be the case. The latest 2x4HD should be basically on par with the others.

Has it been redesigned?

 

[voodooless]

Has it been redesigned?

That’s strange.. I could swear I recently saw info about an updated 2x4HD.. now I can’t find anything .

 

[DVDdoug]

But i often i seen the range between 100-200hz with some cancelations and moving the sub kind of don't solve that problem, the best solution is just boost that range in the main speaker, i find room-eq very useful for this problem

You can't generally fix cancellation (a standing wave node) with equalization because it takes nearly infinitely large subs and nearly infinite power. (+6dB is four times the power and probably about as far as you should go). But EQ does work for "bumps" (antinodes).

The "professional fix" is bass traps which can trap the bass that would otherwise be reflected. This smooths-out the bumps and the dips. Or you can possibly accomplish the same thing with multiple subs positioned around the room.

 

[Trdat]

These? are around 800 usd~ here

My only problem is if with these stuff, the chain will become noiser and will add noise to my tweeters at 3-5cm


I don't wanna buy second hands things, because warranty is a good thing for me. Long life is good imho.

Whats your AVR? if its good enough like the best 2channels dacs/low level line outs it will be good, i often see AVRs with built in crossover for the mains.

If your not up for a DBX type crossover than your other option is an active crossover with software DSP to Eq. My first route was this option using a Marchand crossover with Audiolense DSP, the results were great but atfter seeing the Marchand review measurements were below average I am not sure how much I was loosing from the 70ish DB SINAD.

I have also use the AVR route, using a Marantz AVR with similar SINAD as the Marchand crossover, overall I can't say I notice a difference. This uses its own internal crossover which was mentioned above somwhere.

The best way would be using something like a UDIO-8 digital to digital converter which allows you to connect a seperate DAC to each channel with an seperate amp for each frewquency range and configure the crossover with a software DSP such as Audiolense. No extra noise, no reduction in SINAD your signal chain will be based the equipments measurments per se. The only down side of this is that it is only for music listening and you will have a time delay with watching movies or television.

 

[fineMen]

If your not up for a DBX type crossover ...

A non-issue with today's digital electronics, but still worth mentioning me thinks: digital level matching takes away bit resolution. I use simple resistive attenuators in the analog line signal before power amplification as to match levels roughly.