Cheapest Full Range 20hz - 20khz Speakers?

[detlev24]

[...] Dynaudio's best subwoofer is only $2400 so I thought it would be weird to matcha $2400 sub with $45000 speakers. So I started looking at other really high end brands like Sonus Faber for example and I noticed that the only speakers that they had that could do full range were even more expensive than the Confidence 60s.

Dynaudio's best subwoofer is the Core Sub, with an MSRP of $4,799.

It easily would cost double, if it was dedicated to the end-consumer; and thus had a more refined enclosure finish.

You cannot really go by price. Another important aspect, why so few loudspeakers are true full-range, lies in the huge dimensions required. Take 'JBL M2' or the previously mentioned 215RT as an example. Most people want small/slim loudspeakers in their modern living rooms; that provide a "big sound".

The trade-offs always lead to a limited maximum SPL, especially in the (sub) bass region.

 

[Martin]

Von Schweikert VR-33 will get you real extremely close for $3750 a pair.

Martin

 

[daftcombo]

Nope, the lowest room mode of common living room sizes is around 30-35 Hz and below that there is the so called pressure chamber effect that increases theoretically the amplitude by 12db/oct so you can get a linear response if your (sub)woofer drops with the same slope (usually closed baffle designs).

I have read about that a lot of times but never found an objective proof via measurements.
If you can provide them, you might convince me!

 

[FrankF]

How do you figure the Triton goes 11Hz deeper than a Salon2?

They don't. If you look a JA's measurements they have a steep roll off at 25 hz.. Golden Ear never gives the - 3 db cutoff.

 

[Logan Nolag]

Dynaudio's best subwoofer is the Core Sub, with an MSRP of $4,799.

It easily would cost double, if it was dedicated to the end-consumer; and thus had a more refined enclosure finish.

You cannot really go by price. Another important aspect, why so few loudspeakers are true full-range, lies in the huge dimensions required. Take 'JBL M2' or the previously mentioned 215RT as an example. Most people want small/slim loudspeakers in their modern living rooms; that provide a "big sound".

The trade-offs always lead to a limited maximum SPL, especially in the (sub) bass region.

Right I forgot about that. I was talking about their best home audio sub the Sub 6.

 

[barfyman362]

Just superglue some bookshelf speakers to a pair of $500 subwoofers and add a minidsp. I just saved you $10,000.

 

[tuga]

@tuga: Regarding the woofer section, Data-Bass also shows a table of 'CEA2010' pass marks. This gives a good idea about distortion magnitude and (sub) bass performance.

We certainly cannot compare such a loudspeaker to 'JBL M2' or other state-of-the-art full-range designs. Anyways, it would not be the scope of this thread; neither is the OP's request.

I would not be too concerned about the 215RT's coaxial compression driver's distortion at "normal" listening levels. It most probably is lower than the MF/HF distortion, most loudspeakers in a similar price range would show.

I will have a look.
My comments regarding IMD and HD were directed at the low- and sub-bass which is where a 3-way would struggle.

I wouldn't consider the JBL M2 a full-range design.

More importantly, I am trying to make a point that unless @Logan Nolag is willing to spend a lot of money for high fidelity ULF then it's not really something worth pursuing.

 

[detlev24]

Right I forgot about that. I was talking about their best home audio sub the Sub 6.

There's not much development ongoing for the end-consumer, aka "audiophile", sector in Europe. The demand is very low and the application of subwoofers is generally misunderstood.

Subwoofers sell in Europe mainly to audio professionals and some home theatre enthusiasts; the latter being a rather small community.

Most end-user "subwoofers" probably ship with soundbars...

[...] I wouldn't consider the JBL M2 a full-range design. [...]

The 'Spinorama CEA 2034-A-2015 (ANSI)' data shows ~80 dB SPL at 20 Hz, which clearly is above the audible threshold.

Distortion levels are below audibility by design, as well, and if you take "room gain" into the equation, ~15 Hz flat are easily reached.

 

[Logan Nolag]

There's not much development ongoing for the end-consumer, aka "audiophile", sector in Europe. The demand is very low and the application of subwoofers is generally misunderstood.

Subwoofers sell in Europe mainly to audio professionals and some home theatre enthusiasts; the latter being a rather small community.

Most end-user "subwoofers" probably ship with soundbars...

Yeah I get that. That's the reason I currently own a Dynaudio BM14SII. It's a pro audio sub which is pretty much identical to their previous top of the line audiophile/home theater sub the Sub 600 except much cheaper and with XLR inputs instead of RCA and it has a much cheaper black vinyl cabinet.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I have read about that a lot of times but never found an objective proof via measurements.
If you can provide them, you might convince me!

If you google room gain or cabin gain, this is a pretty well known concept.

Here is objective proof via measurements, one of our 12" subwoofers groundplane, so outside (green), and in a normal sized (for Scandinavia anyway) living room (brown). Notice the difference in low end extension, around 10dB gain at 15hz.

 

[daftcombo]

If you google room gain or cabin gain, this is a pretty well known concept.

Here is objective proof via measurements, one of our 12" subwoofers groundplane, so outside (green), and in a normal sized (for Scandinavia anyway) living room (brown). Notice the difference in low end extension, around 10dB gain at 15hz.

View attachment 92421

Thank you. This is pretty convincing below 20 Hz or so.

That also proves once again that there is nothing like "room gain" as people claim in the audible range, that is 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Just a jungle of peaks and dips due to modes.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I have read about that a lot of times but never found an objective proof via measurements.
If you can provide them, you might convince me!

I don’t have measured evidence to offer that pressurisation occurs in most rooms, but it’s definitely the case that the room’s modal region only stretches down to frequencies of wavelength twice the room’s largest dimension. So for a mode to exist at 20Hz or below, a room would need to have a dimension of around 8.5m or greater, which would make it larger than the average domestic room - at least here in Europe (perhaps this would be more common in the US?).

As to whether/the extent to which pressurisation occurs, it depends on construction materials. If the boundaries are sufficiently reflective (as opposed to lossy) at these frequencies and the room is small enough, pressurisation will necessarily occur, although the theoretical 12dB/octave won’t be approached unless the walls are very solid.

My guess is that this phenomenon is far less typical in North America than in say Northern Europe, where our walls tend to be more solid and our rooms smaller and more self-contained.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Thank you. This is pretty convincing below 20 Hz or so.

That also proves once again that there is nothing like "room gain" as people claim in the audible range, that is 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Just a jungle of peaks and dips due to modes.

Where it starts depends on the size of the room. It starts around 25-30hz in my room, but is obscured a bit by two dips around 25 and 21hz. But yes, room gain won't do a lot for speakers who aren't already going quite deep in frequency. But if you have something that extends to 25hz or maybe even 30hz, you will see some benefit if it's a sealed speaker. If you have a ported speaker, it will roll off very quickly below the port frequency.

So for most practical purposes you are correct for the majority of speakers. Subwoofers however, will benefit.

 

[Universal Cereal Bus]

BTW @richard12511, just noticed your signature line - those are some very nice systems you've got there

There's something very, very wrong about that signature line, though. How do you, @richard12511, identify your 2nd-5th systems as Secondary through Quinary yet call your 1st system Main, not Primary??? IS THIS NOT A FORUM FOR LOGIC AND REASON?!?!

 

[stevenswall]

Does anyone know what the cheapest pair of full audible range 20hz - 20khz speakers there are? It seems like every pair of speakers I can find that can play the full 20hz - 20khz range cost tens of thousands of dollars.

I would really like to get a pair of full range speakers that can play full range without a sub but there is no way I will ever be able to afford $50000 speakers.

Look for a pair of Devialet Phantom Reactors. Those are the closest thing to what you are looking for but at a fraction of $10,000, they sound excellent, and you should be able to get a pair for about $2500... They also will likely have better dispersion than anything recommended here that doesn't have a coaxial driver.

Personally I don't like the Devialet app and that's a deal breaker for me, and sometimes they would disconnect from each other which I think was due to a problematic router and/or my house wiring. (They can send data over the power cords, commonly called "Powerline Ethernet.)

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tor-900-measurements-now-with-spinorama.9963/

Depending on how loud you listen, they can play 25hz at 95dB, and 20hz at 90dB. Most of what I've read says you should have the bass +10dB since it's less audible, so if you listen at 80dB, you should be set.

While it's closer to full range than most, you are indeed going to need to get the larger Phantom's or subwoofers and another speaker if you want something like "Mountains" from Interstellar to move you.

 

[richard12511]

That also proves once again that there is nothing like "room gain" as people claim in the audible range, that is 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Just a jungle of peaks and dips due to modes.

There's something very, very wrong about that signature line, though. How do you, @richard12511, identify your 2nd-5th systems as Secondary through Quinary yet call your 1st system Main, not Primary??? IS THIS NOT A FORUM FOR LOGIC AND REASON?!?!

Ha! Never noticed that. It has been fixed.

 

[richard12511]

Look for a pair of Devialet Phantom Reactors. Those are the closest thing to what you are looking for but at a fraction of $10,000, they sound excellent, and you should be able to get a pair for about $2500... They also will likely have better dispersion than anything recommended here that doesn't have a coaxial driver.

Personally I don't like the Devialet app and that's a deal breaker for me, and sometimes they would disconnect from each other which I think was due to a problematic router and/or my house wiring. (They can send data over the power cords, commonly called "Powerline Ethernet.)

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tor-900-measurements-now-with-spinorama.9963/

Depending on how loud you listen, they can play 25hz at 95dB, and 20hz at 90dB. Most of what I've read says you should have the bass +10dB since it's less audible, so if you listen at 80dB, you should be set.

While it's closer to full range than most, you are indeed going to need to get the larger Phantom's or subwoofers and another speaker if you want something like "Mountains" from Interstellar to move you.

90dB at 20Hz isn't what I would consider to be truly full range, but it's close, and it's very, very impressive. Even if you ignore the "fake" extension(achieved via DSP) to 14Hz, 90dB @20Hz is incredible for two 4 inch woofers in a tiny orb.

For the more engineering minded folks here, how is Devialet getting that kinda bass from two 4" inch woofers in a tiny enclosure? From what I've learned, bass is less of an engineering challenge(dealing with directivity etc.), and more just a physics problem(woofer size, box size, and amp power). It's not like they're doing something that's never been done. Seaton, for example uses dual opposed 15" woofers in their submersive. Rythmik used to in their FH25. If it can really yield 90dB @20Hz with a tiny box and 4" woofers, then why aren't more companies doing this dual opposed design?

Would love to see the Phantom measured by databass. I wouldn't hold up very well against much of the competition there, but it's also way smaller than the rest of the subs there.

 

[marckgoran]

I doubt it, as the website states "DELIVERY NOVEMBER 11-18".

However, the price is per piece - not exactly what the OP is looking for, I guess.

Actually: "Prices are per pair and include free worldwide shipping as DDP - Delivered duty paid"

I only noticed as I was checking for S400 info and they seem to have all prices for pairs, so I took a glance if same applies for A700 and they have it in bold it is for pair

 

[blueone]

Well, in addition to the Goldenears, another possibility might be a used set of Legacy Audio Focus SE, which are rated down to 18Hz +/- 2 dB. They sometimes are listed for as low as ~$7k. As mentioned in this thread, trying to loudly play sub 30Hz content is hard with smallish bass drivers is really hard. Which is why Legacy's philosophy has always been to use big bass drivers which only attempt to play over a relatively narrow frequency range. The Focus SE uses two 12 inch bass drivers. I don't know how they measure (I imagine not as well as Revel/Focal, etc.) above the bass frequencies, but if you don't demand near perfection in those frequencies, they might be an option. I've heard them at multiple audio shows and they always sound great to me, subjectively.

DSC_0717 by MDTshots, on Flickr

I haven't trusted Legacy Audio specifications since I owned the original Focus in the 1990s, which had three 12" woofers. Legacy claimed 16Hz output, but in my experiments they rolled off sharply at about 30Hz. There was little or no output by 25Hz. Perhaps they've improved the accuracy of their specifications or the bass response of their designs, but at least for the Focus I'm skeptical of the bass capabilities. The woofers in your photo look identical to the Eminence 12" drivers in my 1996 versions.

 

[TankTop]

I second the Legacy SE’s.

What about Salk Exotica 3’s? $13k but you’ll keep em forever! The Exotica is a Rythmik L22 with a bookshelf stuck on top.

As a side note I’ve thought of using a pail of L22 as fancy speaker stands for my Special 40’s.