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Best bang for the buck subwoofer according to ASR

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On the other hand - it double DSP a bad thing? There are inherently some benefits to using a "kit" (whether its a premade sub package or a PE kit with the amp) as it may require less fiddling than a complete custom route with a dumb amp. For me, I already have Dirac on my processor, and the passive subs are quite a bit cheaper than active ones, so for someone like me, who wants a pretty straight forward "set it and forget it" approach, would a passive sub and dumb amp with the dirac integration work the easiest? Or would I be better off getting something like the SVS pro models and configuring the sub and then running dirac?
I built my 3 x 15" sealed subs from parts express kits and am running them on 3 channels of two crown xls 2502. Fourth channel runs two buttkickers in series. I am using a miniDSP HD 2x4 as my AVR only has 2 sub outputs. But if it had 3 sub outputs i would let the AVR do DSP.

You will get way more bang foryour buck with this approach. My total is under $2k i think and buying 3 x 15" subs at retail would have been triple.
 
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DonH56

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I understand but the OP was asking if the dumb amp can be left alone and strictly use the AVR for DSP but that may not be true depending on the application. If he ends up with a VBSS or another ported sub and he's pushing 600-800 watts, I'd probably set a HPF to not push the xmax too far near port frequency. Not a problem in a sealed sub obviously. Wouldn't you agree?
Hmmm... All the AVRs I have include a crossover for the sub and incorporate some sort of bass management. The subs I have utilize an LFE input that essentially does not touch the signal and leaves it to the AVR. The AVR provides the crossover, sets the delay (phase), and adjusts the sub's frequency response. Many room correction programs will not boost below the measured cut-off frequency, and some not (or very little) above that. BUt I am also using Dirac Live so have pretty good control over the target curve, including rolling off the LF response as appropriate (my subs are sealed FWIW).

That said, a HPF to reduce signals below cut-off or port tuning frequency, particularly for ported designs, does make a lot of sense to me. I overlooked or misunderstood that HPF and agree with you. Rythmik includes a HPF (rumble filter) in their amps.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

<snip>


Of the sealed subs, SVS mostly outperforms the larger Emotiva unit as well as B&W.

<snip>

Four of the SVS subs placed around most rooms will provide more headroom than most people will use. Furthermore, there are movies beyond war movies and the comic book universe.
quick (possibly dumb) question - alot of the diy systems or kits specify dsp, whether its built into the plate amp or in the external box (inuke built in dsp in the VBSS for example). If you had dirac built into your pre amp, would any of that be needed? I guess I'm most curious about this because I intend to have 2x passive subs connected via a "dumb" amp (crown XLS or the like) fed by my emotiva xmc-1 and just let the xmc-1 take care of all the dsp stuff. I figured this would save quite a bit of money and I wouldn't be doing "double dsp" (if thats even an issue)

This can get very complicated in a hurry. Let's summarize.
Best bass requires multiple subs, at least 3.
They don't need to be all of high performance
They can even be different.
TO center on the SVS-12 NSD. It is not a high output subwoofer but it is very linear and it reaches low, very low, lower than more costly and larger subwoofers.
To repeat Jhaider, 4 of these will provide more bass than 99.9999% of audiophiles or HT-philes require or are even aware that's possible in their rooms. This combo can provide smooth and behaved bass. in layman terms good low bass extension, low distortion and serious SPL, back of the nad calculation would be >100 dB at 20 Hz at multiple seating positions. With 110 dB possible in other parts of the bass spectrum. For music or HT, even in a room as large as 20 X 25 X 12 ft ...

Let's try to simplify

Look at it this way. Use powered subwoofers. Use a miniDSp 2 x4 HD. Forget about everything else for the moment. The miniDSP 2 x4 HD + 4 Powered subwoofers combination is THE subwoofing system. Leave the AVR out of the equation for the moment. take The AVR subwoofer output, feed it to the miniDSP 2x4HD connected to at least your 3 subs. Concentrate on powered subwoofer. Boxes that comes with an amp. FOrget about their DSP, just look at the fact they are powered and have good ratings from DATABASS or other good sites. I like those Dayton Audio 15" "Cheesewoofers" because they are cheap and powerful or the least expensive sealed Rythmik, the L12 are also a good deal. The SVS 12NSD is a great deal. Using 4 of the L12 or the SVS-12NSD with the miniDSp 2 x 4 HD provides your with the potential of incredible bass. Why the miniDSP 2 x 4 , you may ask? Flexible, powerful, useful, EQ, Delay, Any crossover you ever dreamed or read on? Any crossover slopes you will ever need slopes, delay from 1 ms to 20 ms, can take REW data straight and use it. Huge user community, inexpensive for what it can do.

Don't think Room correction, Room Curve, High Pass Filter. etc just yet. Think superb , high performance , Subwoofer system. See this (combo) as the subwoofer. The rest will come to the equation later.

Oh and don't forget: You need the UMik1 ($100) and REW ($0.00 t whatever you want to donate) those are requirements.
Diagram will come later...
Promise.
 
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Hi
Look at it this way. Use powered subwoofers. Use a miniDSp 2 x4 HD. Forget about everything else for the moment. The miniDSP 2 x4 HD + 4 Powered subwoofers combination is THE subwoofing system. Using 4 of the L12 or the SVS-12NSD with the miniDSp 2 x 4 HD provides your with the potential of incredible bass.

Oh and don't forget: You need the UMik1 ($100) and REW ($0.00 t whatever you want to donate) those are requirements.

Promise.
This is good advice if you don't want to build. Just over $2400 for the 4 sealed SVS subs + MiniDSP 2x4 HD + UMIK + REW.

You will get a lot of bass with that setup and is a good starting point. I will say that I went from 3 x 10" retail lower cost ported subs to the 3 x 15" sealed subs from kits and the difference is substantial - but not necessary ;)
 

jhaider

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quick (possibly dumb) question - alot of the diy systems or kits specify dsp, whether its built into the plate amp or in the external box (inuke built in dsp in the VBSS for example). If you had dirac built into your pre amp, would any of that be needed?
Not a dumb question at all! The answer is, it depends. There are two circumstances where one would want a dedicated DSP for subwoofers.

1) The design calls for boost to shape its anechoic frequency response. Often the specified boost will exceed the boost thresholds of a room correction system. The result is the room correction system will detect a higher cutoff than the system is capable of delivering. This is common for small sealed designs. For example, here is a nearfield measurement of a Dayton RSS265HF woofer in a Velodyne SC-10 cabinet (approx. 18L or 2/3 cu. ft.). I use two of these as subwoofers in a desktop/nearfield system.

Dayton RSS265HF in Velodyne SC-10 cabinet.png


As you can see, the native response is down 3dB at about 45Hz. If you want the native response to be flat an octave lower, you need 12dB of bass boost.

2) You have multiple subwoofers. You're going to want to be able to adjust levels and delays individually, and PEQ also helps. My approach to multiple subwoofers is to manually tune the system to make the bass as similar as possible across the seating area and minimize large dips, then use automated correction to flatten and smooth out the resulting response. The downside is a large time commitment to get the subwoofers set up in the first place.

Also, this is a tangent, but conventional wisdom holds that box size determines efficiency and LF cutoff. In practice that is not always true. Here is a comparison between the stock Velodyne SC-10 (orange) and the Dayton RSS265HF (blue) in the same Velodyne cabinet powered by the same amp (D-Sonic chassis, ICEpower 500ASP module). I was not expecting this result. I bought the Daytons because they physically fit the cabinet and in simulations they went lower. I thought they would have less broadband output.

Velo SC10 vs Dayton RSS265HF in SC10 cab.png


Both voltage sensitivity and cutoff are markedly different, with the Dayton woofer performing better in both measures (roughly: 2.5dB more sensitive at 80Hz, 10Hz lower cutoff). The output voltage is the same - nothing changed in the signal chain. Distance from dustcap to microphone was held constant. Dayton draws more current, because it is a 4Ω rather than 8Ω woofer, but the bottom line is, hooked up the same amp one woofer is more sensitive AND goes lower than the other.
 
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@jhaider i feel like you're me, from the future. I too have 2x SC-10's and that is what I currently have in my HT setup but will be transitioning to my office nearfield setup once I figure out my HT. Not to derail too much, but was the dayton upgrade worth it? The velodynes were very cheap for me, but I don't really like them in my HT - they don't go very low at all and there isn't much punch at all.
 
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I don’t know about the woofer but I think those cabinets at 2/3 cu ft are too small to generate much bass. If you want to feel the bass in an HT look at a woofer at 15” up and sealed cabinets at 3 cu ft and up.
 
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right, i just meant for nearfield and music for the sc-10 upgrades. I'd like to re-use them as they were cheap/free and I think they would be a good addition to my office.
 

raistlin65

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Does anyone know of where I can find subwoofer CEA2010 measurements (preferably outdoor/ground-plane) of Dayton Audio Sub-1200 (best rated budget sub as per Wirecutter)?

I checked data-bass.com and audioholics's bassaholic, but they didn't review.

I see that Wirecutter posted the CEA2010 measurements, but they are 1m away (not 2m as standard practice) and I believe his measurements were done indoors, not outdoors/ground-plane.

I don't know how much I can accept Wirecutter's CEA2010 measurements, considering tests are done indoors and thus the results will vary with rooms (my assumption is that anywhere up to 6dB was added to his data, so can I trust it?) over the outdoor/ground-plane measurements.
I'm pretty certain that Brent Butterworth took those measurements, as he is the reviewer in the Wirecutter best budget subwoofer article. Audioholics has referenced some of Butterworth's measurements in some of their articles. If he's good enough for Audioholics, he should be good enough for you :)

Subtract 6db from 1 meter CEA2010 to convert them to 2 meters measurements, as SPL decreases -6db when you double the distance from the audio source.
 
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sweetchaos

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I'm pretty certain that Brent Butterworth took those measurements, as he is the reviewer in the Wirecutter best budget subwoofer article. Audioholics has referenced some of Butterworth's measurements in some of their articles. If he's good enough for Audioholics, he should be good enough for you :)

Subtract 6db from 1 meter CEA2010 to convert them to 2 meters measurements, as SPL decreases -6db when you double the distance from the audio source.
Thanks for the insight that Audioholics trust's Brent's measurements, that makes me trust his data. :D

I learned 2 more things:
1. I found out that Brent is doing measurements outdoors (in his backyard) to get rid of any room gain, which makes the data credible.
2. Brent's CEA2010 data is shown as peak dB (not RMS dB like I thought).

Data-bass and Audioholics are measuring at 2m with RMS dB.

So I have to do 2 conversions:
1. 3dB (for peak to RMS)
2. 6dB (for 1m to 2m)

So I can use Brent's measurements after subtracting 9dB from it, to make it equivalent to Data-bass.com's and Audioholic's measurements.
 

raistlin65

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Thanks for the insight that Audioholics trust's Brent's measurements, that makes me trust his data. :D

I learned 2 more things:
1. I found out that Brent is doing measurements outdoors (in his backyard) to get rid of any room gain, which makes the data credible.
2. Brent's CEA2010 data is shown as peak dB (not RMS dB like I thought).

Data-bass and Audioholics are measuring at 2m with RMS dB.

So I have to do 2 conversions:
1. 3dB (for peak to RMS)
2. 6dB (for 1m to 2m)

So I can use Brent's measurements after subtracting 9dB from it, to make it equivalent to Data-bass.com's and Audioholic's measurements.
Yep. Skim this review of the Speedwoofer 10s. Audioholics is referencing his measurements: https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/rsl-speedwoofer-10s
 

jhaider

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@jhaider i feel like you're me, from the future. I too have 2x SC-10's and that is what I currently have in my HT setup but will be transitioning to my office nearfield setup once I figure out my HT. Not to derail too much, but was the dayton upgrade worth it? The velodynes were very cheap for me, but I don't really like them in my HT - they don't go very low at all and there isn't much punch at all.
Are you using them with Velodyne's SC-1250 amp on the correct preset? They were designed to be used as a system. The amp has the high voltage and EQ the stock woofers require. Without a very high voltage amplifier and EQ to extend the response, they sound terrible!

To give you a picture showing why that is the case, refer to nearfield frequency response measurements above, and these impedance sweeps for SC-10 with stock woofer (hereafter "Velodyne") and SC-10 fitted with Dayton RSS265HF (hereafter "Velodayton").
Velodyne SC-10 and VeloDayton SC-10 impedance.png


The peak indicates system resonance. Velodayton's system resonance is 12.75Hz lower in frequency and better controlled (smaller peak). Velodyne impedance is over 8Ω through its whole bandwidth, but VeloDayton is considerably lower. Velodayton's impedance also stays flatter after resonance, a sign of better inductance control in the motor. Velodyne's impedance shoots right back up after the peak. No shorting in the motor?

Despite the simple woofer, Velodyne system (i.e. with matching amp) performance is respectable for a commercial subwoofer designed over a dozen years ago. Tom Nousaine measured them, but he did in room measurements that are not comparable with the current ground plane standard. Also Sound & Vision has far more broken links than should be allowed from an allegedly professional publishing house, so his full lab report is vanished and only the sidebar remains.

Was it worth it? For me, yes. I did the woofer swap because my SC-1250 broke. Dayton RSS265HF has the same frame design as the stock woofer so everything lines up, and they were on sale for $112 each when I bought them last month. The woofer swap is slightly more involved than with a typical subwoofer: the woofer is rear mounted, and secured by both screws and screwed-in clamps. You'll need a thin-shaft PH2 screwdriver to access all the screws, because Velodyne’s woofer magnet is gigantic.

Back to your earlier “double DSP” question, here I am using it sort of. Technically there is one controller: miniDSP DDRC-24D, which is the same hardware as 2x4HD. It has a manual processor block followed by a Dirac Live block. I'm doing subEQ (similar to Linkwitz Transform), gain and delay on the subs, and bass management for mains and subs (5th order slopes at 100Hz; mains are currently Neumann KH 80 DSP) manually, and using Dirac Live up to 500Hz. Dirac alone would not provide the expected bass boost, or blend the two subwoofers well. The unit connects to computer digitally (USB) and allows volume control directly in macOS.
 

trl

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Here is the frequency response of the 3 subs at the MLP. 14 x 12 room. Tuned with UMIK and REW. $2k cost all in.



Compare to the SVS Ultra at 2k each.
About -3dB at 5Hz, comparing with the 80-90Hz sine?!? That is around 96dB SPL which is awesome!

Is there another sub in the world going that down and at the same time being so flat up to 100Hz?
 
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Bear123

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About -3dB at 5Hz, comparing with the 80-90Hz sine?!? That is around 96dB SPL which is awesome!

Is there another sub in the world going that down and at the same time being so flat up to 100Hz
The above is a fantastic result, no doubt!

Are you asking if their are better subs/drivers? If so, here is what I consider to be one of the best subwoofer drivers made in the world. I have a pair in my system in 4ft^3 sealed boxes with about 1k watts to each(8 ohm). Above reference capable(115 dB) from below 10 Hz to much higher than I would ever want/need to cross in my 2525ft^3 room. If I'm going to spend a couple thousand on subs, they better at the very least be reference capable for movies and music. Even four SB12's won't achieve this unless in a closet.

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c48e01911126b0004ca12ec?_k=pdrwno

Four of the SB12's would not match one of these.

The SB12 is fine if someone needs a small, inexpensive, low output sub. But it doesn't have anywhere near enough output for many applications. A lot of DSP is used to get extension down into the mid 20 Hz range as evidence by the high group delay in the measurements and heavy compression/limiting down low at fairly low drive levels. I do agree it cannot be easily beaten at $400 for a turnkey product. I'd gladly use it in my workout room or office.
 
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audiophile

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In my opinion REL T5i at $599 (£449 in UK) is a great value for small rooms. I own a pair and with EQ was able to get smooth FR in 20-100 Hz range. If I remember correctly the same sub was selling at around $1000 couple years ago.
 

FrantzM

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HI

I will come up with the connectivity diagrams later.

The following is addressed to the OP and us, the neophytes objectivists.:
Please do not take the following as patronizing. It is not. Getting the best our of an Audio system takes time. Not a couple of hours, not a few days or one week. It takes more , it may take month-S, as in several, as in more than one. It's not, thankfully, a never ending process but it takes a while and it works with iterations. IOW you go back to where you started and do it over a few times. While one can get a usable and/or satisfactory response from Audyssey, Dirac or other"automatic" correction systems, Pressing of a button will not bestow you with the best bass you system is capable of in one trial...

First off: You must read and research. There are numerous YouTube material on the subject but read first, watch when you are ready to proceed. Try to digest the copious amount of material and try not to get confused. Concentrate on bass for now. Multiple subwoofers work and it is the best way to get Great bass in one's abode. There is no better way. Even the better full range speakers will provide better sound when coupled with multiple subwoofers. Even speakers with built-in subs. It is always better to have bass radiators in room for best sound. Those location )for best, smoother bass) ALWAYS differ from the speakers location for better imaging, soundstage, reproduction of the rest of the spectrum. Physics, not opinion. It is quite possible to get extraordinary good sound at one listening position with a pair of full range speakers. In most cases, as in more than 90%, you will get even better sound with subwoofers added to that full range system, even if you decide to run the main speakers full range. I see multiple subwofers as essential to great sound. IMHO, no system is complete without subS, even if one listen to genres with apparently no lows, say, Western Classical Chamber music or strictly vocals. There is always a debate about the logistics of multiple subs, and their WAF or HAF(Husband Approval Factor). It is easier to hide a sub than a main speaker...

On the multiple subs there are two main schools. The Harman and the slightly different Geddes. There may be others, I am not aware of.
Conduct this search on google: "Harman Multiple subwoofer paper" and read. Harman's in a nutshell: Best is 4 subs placed in the middle of each wall in a simple rectangular room. How is 'nother story. You must read (a lot ) to know how.

For Geddes we have these
Two Great Articles on Multiple Subwoofers by Dr. Earl Geddes

Searching will provide you more. I prefer the Geddes approach. In essence:
You use 3 subs:
The most powerful one in a front corner of the room. The others? Almost anywhere. FOr exemple one on the left side somewhere, a third on the opposite wall slightly higher or even in the back. Geddes prefers bandpass subwoofers but it works with any subwoofer, even ported.

I prefer the Geddes method. It is not superior, just slightly different and allows the use of different subwoofers in a quasi random placement.

One more thing. Measuring takes time. Learning curve is tortuous. Many of us marvel at some here who regularly come up with incredibly useful graphs, I am thinking about Ray Dunzl here, his graphs speaks and answers questions. If you were to ask him, I am sure the answer would be that it took months to come up with this fluency. I know this from experience and I haven't posted anything of serious relevance here. I will in due time when at some point my measurements make sense to me :facepalm:.

So be patient. You will be rewarded and the cash outlay can be reasonable. This being the ASR: $1000 can provide formidable bass: smooth within plus or minus 3 dB from 30 to 100 Hz @ SPL 100dB in rooms as large as 5000 cu-ft rooms.
 
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