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Bang for your buck king in the budget space?

So I've got the A20h in my cart but I'm not sure. I think I've gone too far down the rabbit hole on all this. I've looked at some reviews of the JM 20, I know Amir tested it as good, but noise ratings aside, is it really a good dac? I've seen some people say that is has poor instrument separation and layering. Plus you can only get it on Ali which who knows what you're gonna get or if it's real.

I'm craving a rich, impactful, emotional and detailed sound. I'm not convinced the ALC897 codec can product anything beyond mediocre. The dongle, while having good noise and what not readings, does it actually produce good audio? Or would I be better served with something like the K11 (Maybe r2r? Though I think they nerfed the amp on that one for some reason).
 
So I've got the A20h in my cart but I'm not sure. I think I've gone too far down the rabbit hole on all this. I've looked at some reviews of the JM 20, I know Amir tested it as good, but noise ratings aside, is it really a good dac? I've seen some people say that is has poor instrument separation and layering. Plus you can only get it on Ali which who knows what you're gonna get or if it's real.

I'm craving a rich, impactful, emotional and detailed sound. I'm not convinced the ALC897 codec can product anything beyond mediocre. The dongle, while having good noise and what not readings, does it actually produce good audio? Or would I be better served with something like the K11 (Maybe r2r? Though I think they nerfed the amp on that one for some reason).
Subjective reviews of DACs are useless. If a DAC has typical measurements, it will provide no contribution to the sound. "Rich, impactful and detailed sound" comes from performers, producers and engineers. It does not come from playback gear. It's easy to fool oneself into believing that a DAC can have a different sound if one reads subjective reviews that insinuate that a DAC somehow sounds different. But, unless a DAC is poorly designed or somehow failing to function properly, it will provide no contribution to the sound.
 
Subjective reviews of DACs are useless. If a DAC has typical measurements, it will provide no contribution to the sound. "Rich, impactful and detailed sound" comes from performers, producers and engineers. It does not come from playback gear. It's easy to fool oneself into believing that a DAC can have a different sound if one reads subjective reviews that insinuate that a DAC somehow sounds different. But, unless a DAC is poorly designed or somehow failing to function properly, it will provide no contribution to the sound.
I'm not sure I agree with this. My experience with headphones is limited but I've had a few stereo and AVR's in my days and there is definitely a large difference in their presentation. Some are warmer with deeper bass and richer sound, some are more neutral and thinner, some are crisp but lack any impact. Some generate immersive sound fields that make you feel like you're in the middle of the action while others just sound like the sound is coming from the speakers. I have to imagine the same is true in terms f headphones. So is the amp the biggest deciding factor then?
 
I'm not sure I agree with this. My experience with headphones is limited but I've had a few stereo and AVR's in my days and there is definitely a large difference in their presentation. Some are warmer with deeper bass and richer sound, some are more neutral and thinner, some are crisp but lack any impact. Some generate immersive sound fields that make you feel like you're in the middle of the action while others just sound like the sound is coming from the speakers. I have to imagine the same is true in terms f headphones. So is the amp the biggest deciding factor then?
The DAC, assuming the design isn't broken, will not affect the sound. The amp can affect the sound depending on a number of factors. There are some headphones that need more "juice" than others, some that require very little power (like AKG's K371). But the biggest factor in the experience of the sound quality of electronics will be found in the expectations of the person listening. Headphones are all over the place - I have lots of experience with different headphones, and something that sounds good to one person will sound awful to another. If you look at the measurements of headphones you can't help but notice that their measurements are nowhere near consistent.
 
The DAC, assuming the design isn't broken, will not affect the sound. The amp can affect the sound depending on a number of factors. There are some headphones that need more "juice" than others, some that require very little power (like AKG's K371). But the biggest factor in the experience of the sound quality of electronics will be found in the expectations of the person listening. Headphones are all over the place - I have lots of experience with different headphones, and something that sounds good to one person will sound awful to another. If you look at the measurements of headphones you can't help but notice that their measurements are nowhere near consistent.
Sure, measurements are important and for headphone especially. But I think there's some sound shaping and coloring being done by the hardware, whether amp or dac. Does every dac you own sound the same with a pair of headphones that they can all drive properly?
 
But I think there's some sound shaping and coloring being done by the hardware, whether amp or dac.
There shouldn't be. If there was, it would show up in the frequency response:

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My experience with headphones is limited but I've had a few stereo and AVR's in my days and there is definitely a large difference in their presentation. Some are warmer with deeper bass and richer sound, some are more neutral and thinner, some are crisp but lack any impact.
Without tightly controlled blind testing and measurements, it's impossible to say why you heard any subjective differences like that. In general, people almost always hear subjective differences between gear in tests, but almost never hear those differences in blind tests. This is a fundamentally important thing to understand if you want to avoid wasting money on audio gear.

Bottom line is there is no reason to expect an amp or DAC to sound tonally different in most cases, and in fact when you test them properly, they almost never do.
I think there's some sound shaping and coloring being done by the hardware, whether amp or dac.
Like what, though? No shaping comes out in the measurements 99% of the time.
Does every dac you own sound the same with a pair of headphones that they can all drive properly?
In my case, yes.
 
So I've got the A20h in my cart but I'm not sure. I think I've gone too far down the rabbit hole on all this. I've looked at some reviews of the JM 20, I know Amir tested it as good, but noise ratings aside, is it really a good dac? I've seen some people say that is has poor instrument separation and layering. Plus you can only get it on Ali which who knows what you're gonna get or if it's real.

I'm craving a rich, impactful, emotional and detailed sound. I'm not convinced the ALC897 codec can product anything beyond mediocre. The dongle, while having good noise and what not readings, does it actually produce good audio? Or would I be better served with something like the K11 (Maybe r2r? Though I think they nerfed the amp on that one for some reason).
I'm not sure I agree with this. My experience with headphones is limited but I've had a few stereo and AVR's in my days and there is definitely a large difference in their presentation. Some are warmer with deeper bass and richer sound, some are more neutral and thinner, some are crisp but lack any impact. Some generate immersive sound fields that make you feel like you're in the middle of the action while others just sound like the sound is coming from the speakers. I have to imagine the same is true in terms f headphones. So is the amp the biggest deciding factor then?
With complete systems and AVRs you have a lot more components and parts than with a DAC.
With AVRs in particular you can never be sure what else is in the sound path, even if it is set to "pure direct". I have a lot of experience in this area over 30 years.

A DAC has a very simple and straightforward task, namely to reproduce in analog form exactly the information that is present in the digital signal. If something audibly different comes out of it, then something has gone really wrong. We are talking about 2 x 2 = 4, not = 3 or = 5.

With the amplifier you already have all the information. If you want something cheaper, e.g. an all-in-one device like the K11, that is your decision, nobody can make that for you. There are a few reports on experience in the forum.
If you buy something like R2R, you should know exactly why and not listen to any myths.
 
What then accounts for all these subjective differences that people hear? Surely it's not magic. You yourselves, does every amp/dac sound the same to you?
 
What then accounts for all these subjective differences that people hear? Surely it's not magic.
1. Cognitive biases (they expect to hear something, so they hear it)
2. Level mismatches (0.2dB-1dB differences are perceived as changes in quality, not as much volume)

People hear something when they expect to hear something, it really is that simple. And they DO hear it, regardless of why. Unfortunately, the reasons for hearing these differences are almost universally misattributed.

You're right that it's not magic. But people regularly hear (small) things that aren't there. A whole thread of stories here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/lets-share-placebo-effect-anecdotes.55067/
 
What then accounts for all these subjective differences that people hear? Surely it's not magic. You yourselves, does every amp/dac sound the same to you?
Because people really want to hear something and usually have a favorite that has to be better.
The second is completely inadequate conditions for a real blind test, starting with different volume levels.

Most of these people wouldn't even do a blind test voluntarily, and if they did, you'll hear an incredible number of excuses as to why they couldn't tell the difference.
I've experienced this not just once, but at least 30-40 times.

But the most important reason is different.
Who hears all these gigantic differences?
And how many views and followers would there be if there were no or only marginal differences?
 
If you're skeptical that there could be so many people proposing to hear things that aren't real...

A big clue is that some reviewers who hear big quality changes between DACs also hear big quality changes between products which are physically incapable of causing those quality changes, like ethernet switches, CAT6 cables, "grounding boxes" and so on.

Someone with powers of hearing worth calling "expert" should really be able to tell when there's no difference, right? And ethernet can't actually change the bits going into the DAC. That's not how it works. If it did, your online bank info would be wrong all the time, among other things. And yet we have numerous reviews saying they improve the sound... hmm...

Let's just say it, a lot of audio reviewing is essentially a scam. ASR and a few other outlets are special because they deliver a bunch of hard data and let us come to our own conclusions. In the rest of the industry, they provide conclusions and maybe occasionally a little data.
 
I really don't think it's down to the placebo effect. Many people hear the same traits, even when not prompted to. For example the new R2R dac is said to sound more organic and life like in side by side listening with other dacs.

I think there's more to sound than a frequency chart. I don't think we're asking the right questions, there's more to it.
 
I really don't think it's down to the placebo effect.
A lot of it is also down to not matching levels correctly. How many reviewers mention using a voltmeter to get the levels exactly the same between two devices? Because if you don't, one will usually sound better just by virtue of output level.

It's a shocking concept, but ultimately true. I would encourage you to spend a little time reading some of the threads here on audibility thresholds. Do some of the listening demos yourself... you will be surprised how hard it is to hear distortion, for example.

Another example: Just like DACs, plenty of people share reviews of speaker cables as if they had a sound of their own.

James Randi offered $1M for anyone that could pass a proper blind test between two speaker cables. Guess what, nobody ever claimed it.

Something these reviewers claim to do easily day-in, day-out... they never bothered to collect. Hmm, wonder why?

Even serious and smart people sometimes fool themselves into thinking they are really hearing things that aren't there. I love the example of Rob Watts, the man behind the well-known Chord DACs. He claims to be able to hear distortion at -300dB. This is not just impossible, it's really impossible. In terms of distance, to get 300dB of attenuation, you have to move lightyears away from the source. If he could hear things 300dB below signal, he could easily hear you snap your fingers in New York while standing in heavy traffic in LA.

I'm not saying this to make fun of Rob, I'm pointing out that even smart and serious people have a very hard time accepting the much more rational explanation that "placebo effect" might make them hear something.


I think there's more to sound than a frequency chart

Yes and no, but when in doubt you can employ software like Deltawave which member @pkane has developed and generously released for free. It does the surprisingly tricky task of subtracting one recording from another, revealing any and all differences.

So we don't have to wonder about some frontier of science that is missing something about audio (which it isn't, but you don't have to wonder, at least.)

Doing this between two DACs rarely reveals anything even plausibly audible.
 
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What then accounts for all these subjective differences that people hear? Surely it's not magic. You yourselves, does every amp/dac sound the same to you?
It's magic - mainly it's expectation bias driven by the needs of the manufactures to move product. Hype, in other words.
 
I remain unconvinced, however, I did order the A20h - looking forward to trying it out. Now I just need to find somewhere to get the JM20.

Thank you all for all your help and input.
 
I remain unconvinced,
It takes some time to come around to the reality that many reviews are basically a summary of things the reviewer imagined hearing.

I will leave this review by Michael Fremer here: https://trackingangle.com/equipment/would-you-buy-a-usd3899-ethernet-switch

Inserting the switch did not change image placement, but it dramatically changed the piano’s attack and sustain. The attack went from the more usual “digital tinkly” to more creamy analog-like, with a more natural structure and more generous midrangy sustain and graceful decay. It sounded more like a piano. The switch had the same effect on Reid’s bass, giving the attack more time to develop the “rubbery” quality heard live when a string gets plucked, yet there was still plenty of fire and detail in the event. The bass had greater overall weight but especially on the deeper notes, which seemed to dig down further. Even the applause went from papery to more fleshy.

Having been acclimated to a particular recorded sound after dozens of plays, you just must believe me that the presentational differences were global and affected everything in ways that were both subtle and profound. I ended up feeling I now had a better idea how the finally mastered vinyl LP might sound.

This is the equivalent of saying websites look slightly pinkish orange after switching your router for a fancier one. Digital audio and ethernet simply do not work that way. If they did, the internet as we know it would be totally unusable.

Here's another fairly prominent audio reviewer who reviewed the same device and heard no difference: https://darko.audio/2023/01/podcast...iophile-network-switches-really-sound-better/

e: I forgot that Amir actually measured this device: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...el-bonn-n8-audio-grade-ethernet-switch.12360/ (spoiler, literally nothing happens when he swaps it in)

So what explains this situation best?

There really are unknown, literally magical mechanisms of sound quality in digital audio, that are audible to some people and not others?

Or one guy just hears what he expects to hear and writes a review accordingly?


e: Anyway, my whole point in writing all this is just to caution you that many (maybe most) reviewers are not worth listening to, and don't worry about your DAC in terms of sound quality. As long as it is working properly in its simple role of turning numbers into voltages, improvements in sound quality are best sought elsewhere, usually in the speakers / headphones themselves.
 
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I remain unconvinced, however, I did order the A20h - looking forward to trying it out. Now I just need to find somewhere to get the JM20.

Thank you all for all your help and input.
As long as you'll remain doubtful you most likely will continue hearing differences where there are not and ask yourself what kind of improvement you would get buying more expensive dacs. If you can't do a proper blind test it's all to you if you want to be convinced or not, if you want continue giving credit to non-senses like soundstage, separation, layering, ecc... associated to digital sources by reviewers that have to rely on those myths since it's their business.
Here at ASR everyone will only confirm that JM20 is a perfect digital source with "no-sound" (as sources are meant to be) and you will get nothing more in terms of sound with fancier and pricier dacs.
It's all to you.

You can find the JM20 only at Aliexpress, I don't see a problem here, especially if you buy from vendors under the "choice" program.

And congrats for ordering the A20h, it's an amazing amp at incredible price.
 
I remain unconvinced, however, I did order the A20h - looking forward to trying it out. Now I just need to find somewhere to get the JM20.

Thank you all for all your help and input.
It tends to be because you're focusing your listening in a different way, driving yourself to notice differences.
 
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