Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

[dlaloum]

…while delivering what SPL to the listening position at 80 Hz? I’m confident it would completely fall apart much below that.

Quad ESL's go down to around 32Hz ( -6db ) according to specs... and as I said SPL (loudness) - they don't do loud.

But my normal listening SPL is 75db - and they do that pretty easy - won't stress too much with 15 to 20db headroom above that, particularly if you opt for the model with the extra bass panels (ESL989, ESL2912) - if you are looking for average levels of over 90db (and aren't deaf .... yet....) then they aren't the right speaker for you.

 

[Newman]

Based on Amir's video on real SPL levels, that is utterly inadequate.

 

[dlaloum]

Based on Amir's video on real SPL levels, that is utterly inadequate.

Based on my SPL meter readings of listening levels in my lounge room - that is perfectly adequate.

Have you measured the SPL at your MLP? - what is the average? what are the peaks?

What do you actually listen at?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Based on Amir's video on real SPL levels, that is utterly inadequate.

Having owned some Quads I'd say they are adequate. Barely adequate, but adequate. One thing in their favor is unlike many box speakers they don't seem to get strained sounding near their limits. So you can use them near those limits regularly.

 

[dlaloum]

Having owned some Quads I'd say they are adequate. Barely adequate, but adequate. One thing in their favor is unlike many box speakers they don't seem to get strained sounding near their limits. So you can use them near those limits regularly.

Which can be risky with the old ESL57's - easy to ARC them!!

But the ESL63's and later are pretty robust.

 

[Newman]

“Robust is easy”

 

[Newman]

Based on my SPL meter readings of listening levels in my lounge room - that is perfectly adequate.
Have you measured the SPL at your MLP? - what is the average? what are the peaks?
What do you actually listen at?

Well, when I go to a classical performance, it’s not up to me “what do I listen at”:-

People don’t run screaming from the venue with their hands over their ears, or come home with hearing damage, from going to a wholly-acoustic classical performance.

If we don’t want our home system to be at least capable of, when we feel like it, making classical music sound realistically loud in the transients, then we have pretty low standards.

So how do stat panels match up to these requirements? One would surely want them to cover almost all of the solid black area in the chart below. Well according to you, your headroom runs out in the yellow area I marked on Amir’s chart:-

Well that’s just utterly, utterly inadequate.

cheers

 

[dlaloum]

“Robust is easy”

A pair of ESL57 max out at around 100db SPL @ 2m

ESL63's are capable of going substantially louder, and the ESL989/2912 can go a bit louder again (but I have not seen max SPL measurements - you don't usually get such a spec for any speaker!)

When I had an all ESL home theatre, (63's at the rear, 989's at the front) - it achieved reference levels without any strain

 

[dlaloum]

Well, when I go to a classical performance, it’s not up to me “what do I listen at”:-

View attachment 232091

People don’t run screaming from the venue with their hands over their ears, or come home with hearing damage, from going to a wholly-acoustic classical performance.

If we don’t want our home system to be at least capable of, when we feel like it, making classical music sound realistically loud in the transients, then we have pretty low standards.

So how do stat panels match up to these requirements? One would surely want them to cover almost all of the solid black area in the chart below. Well according to you, your headroom runs out in the yellow area I marked on Amir’s chart:-

View attachment 232094

Well that’s just utterly, utterly inadequate.

cheers

But that assumes that one would want a heavy metal rock performance, or a full symphonic orchestra in ones home...

Many people don't have that goal - as I stated earlier - my listening is done at typical average levels of around 75db - and there are very very few recordings that have a dynamic range of greater than 20db.... - ESL's are easily capable of 95db - meeting that requirement.

Based on your postings - you probably have not heard properly set up ESL's.

 

[dlaloum]

Ahh an update on the ESL63 ... max uncompressed and undistorted input = 40V, which at 8ohm and 86db/w SPL - works out to 100db @ 1m - with distortion level of 0.03% - Max input V (with increased distortion... they tend to compress, rather than get nasty) - is 55V which raises output to around 103db

The 989 and 2912 models with the additional Bass panels, get at least an additional 3db in the bass - and the rest of the frequency range is the same.

Like I said - the don't play loud - but they play seriously nice.

 

[Newman]

…Based on your postings - you probably have not heard properly set up ESL's.

Based on your postings - you probably have not heard live unamplified music.

Now you know how a stupid comment feels. Enjoy.

 

[Blumlein 88]

But that assumes that one would want a heavy metal rock performance, or a full symphonic orchestra in ones home...

Many people don't have that goal - as I stated earlier - my listening is done at typical average levels of around 75db - and there are very very few recordings that have a dynamic range of greater than 20db.... - ESL's are easily capable of 95db - meeting that requirement.

Based on your postings - you probably have not heard properly set up ESL's.

For a few years I owned ESL-63s I worked a night shift. I'd come home, and usually put on Led Zep or Stravinsky or Prokofiev. After a couple hours I was ready for some sleep.

 

[GXAlan]

Well, when I go to a classical performance, it’s not up to me “what do I listen at”:-

….

Well that’s just utterly, utterly inadequate.

For the record, I run JBL S/2600 which handles 400W at 92 db efficiency getting me 115 dB sustained levels if I want. I back that up with a JL Audio F110 and a Velodyne Digital Drive 10.

Many of the older SPL articles seem to be too high.

A newer 2011 article gets into the nitty gritty of what the musicians actually hear

Sound Exposure of Symphony Orchestra Musicians

Abstract. Background: Assessment of sound exposure by noise dosimetry can be challenging especially when measuring the exposure of classical orchestra musi

academic.oup.com

There are peaks at 130 dB but let’s assume that it as one foot distance from the musician to the instrument.

1 ft 130 dB
That means at 16 feet away, you are down to 106 dB.
At 128 feet or 39 meters, you are down to 86 dB.

If we think that the width of a stage should match your ideal seating position that is 92 dB peaks at 64 feet.

 

[Newman]

Sound exposure of musicians is well known to be harmful to their health/hearing. Look at a violinist and wonder no more. But the levels in Amir's video are more about SPL's for observers.

I was at a live 70 piece orchestra in a hall some weeks ago, and I was way, way back in the cheap sets. I got peak SPLs in the mid-90s A-weighted, and more like 110 unweighted. Those in better seats no doubt were experiencing higher SPLs than I.

 

[Sokel]

10 meters from the stage (front seats) I have measured 108dbA many times and not on very loud passages.
On the stage I have measured 115dbA.All that with a Triplett 3550 which they have there and reported 10-15db more compared to the phone app
Just for the record.

​

 

[Descartes]

What an amazing amount of information thank Amir! Human hearing sensitivity decreases with age and since most audiophiles are older.

Changes in Hearing Thresholds over 10 Years in Older Adults

Changes in hearing thresholds over a 10-year period in a large population of older adults (2130) ranging in age from 48 to 92 years were documented. Pure-tone thresholds at frequencies from 0.5 to 8 kHz were evaluated at a baseline examination and 2.5, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Newman]

Human hearing sensitivity decreases with age and since most audiophiles are older.

But what do you think are the implications for audiophiles?

 

[Blumlein 88]

But what do you think are the implications for audiophiles?

You don't hear the noise in your room as much. You are older and can afford a bigger amplifier. So you play it louder and hear noise less. Older audiophiles end up with more effective dynamic range. Or is this wrong somehow? (TIC)

 

[GXAlan]

You don't hear the noise in your room as much. You are older and can afford a bigger amplifier. So you play it louder and hear noise less. Older audiophiles end up with more effective dynamic range. Or is this wrong somehow? (TIC)

It’s probably true! For solid state amps, you are initially noise limited. Then it is a while before you start to see distortion.

If your noise floor is lower, your brain processes the non linearity of your high frequency loss, then you get higher SNR for the electronics as your hearing gets worse!

The real question is if the higher SPLs introduce more distortion at the speaker level. Maybe the love for Klipsch Heritage products among gray haired folk is less about nostalgia but more about high SPLs

 

[Curvature]

You don't hear the noise in your room as much. You are older and can afford a bigger amplifier. So you play it louder and hear noise less. Older audiophiles end up with more effective dynamic range. Or is this wrong somehow? (TIC)

It’s probably true! For solid state amps, you are initially noise limited. Then it is a while before you start to see distortion.

If your noise floor is lower, your brain processes the non linearity of your high frequency loss, then you get higher SNR for the electronics as your hearing gets worse!

The real question is if the higher SPLs introduce more distortion at the speaker level. Maybe the love for Klipsch Heritage products among gray haired folk is less about nostalgia but more about high SPLs

Subjectively older audiophiles with HF hearing loss will have loudness mapped onto a decreased dynamic range. It's a poor tradeoff.

Speakers generally have an optimal range and then distortion sharply rises when they are pushed.