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100% guaranteed no audible [signal] distortion

sergeauckland

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You missed the point of the thread.
It wasn't:
"At what level is distortion free"
It was:
"If this is the dynamic range of one's hearing, and harmonic distortion is discernable from music, during music, then up to how loud can music be played with 0% chance of harmonic distortion being audible, if peak distortion is at -xx dB"

Purely theoretical. The logic tracked. We had an interesting conversation otherwise though

(I switched things around a bit for your explanation, but only because it's a lot longer to summarize exactly what I wrote, and this means the same thing [+ I'm explaining what you didn't read in the first sentences of the OP]
If your -xxdB above is greater than 60dB, then music can be played as loud as you like. If -xxdB is the most distortion possible, at any level, distortion will only ever be lower at levels lower than maximum.

What you're asking, I think, assumes that at some peak level, distortion will be audible, and therefore greater than 1% or -40dB. That's just not the case with any modern (say after 1960, definitely after 1980) amplifier design provided the amplifier isn't clipping. Earlier amplifiers (and modern ones to early designs, like SETs) can provide sufficient distortion to be audible, but I don't think that's what you mean.

The dynamic range of one's hearing isn't really relevant here because again with decent designs, distortion either remains constant as a percentage, with level, or reduces with reducing level. Only in a few early transistor amplifiers did percentage distortion increase with reducing level due to crossover distortion, which is why they made a Big Thing about only quoting distortion at high level.

S.
 
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MaxwellsEq

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An important one is listening fatigue.
An amplifier with lower distortion will take longer to induce listening fatigue in the listener. Of course this varies by the song, how many songs, how loud they are, how well they're recorded. Even how well hydrated the listener is has an effect. But the point is: increased distortion increases listening fatigue. Severity isn't easily quantifyable.
Do you know what causes listener fatigue and how it can be measured? I'm reasonably confident that I don't know what causes it, nor what the units of measurement are.

I've been in studios when musicians are being recorded. After a very short while I found trombones close to me made me want to move away. Live instruments (drumkits, some brass etc.) are very loud and are hard to listen comfortably.

It might be that listening to highly accurate reproduction at accurate sound levels is naturally fatiguing and systems that don't induce "listener fatigue" are not accurate.
 

fpitas

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Do you know what causes listener fatigue and how it can be measured? I'm reasonably confident that I don't know what causes it, nor what the units of measurement are.

I've been in studios when musicians are being recorded. After a very short while I found trombones close to me made me want to move away. Live instruments (drumkits, some brass etc.) are very loud and are hard to listen comfortably.

It might be that listening to highly accurate reproduction at accurate sound levels is naturally fatiguing and systems that don't induce "listener fatigue" are not accurate.
It's certainly true that the vast majority of recordings have the dynamic range seriously reduced.
 

MaxwellsEq

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It's certainly true that the vast majority of recordings have the dynamic range seriously reduced.
I think so few people have listening environments which are quiet enough to handle more than about 50dB unless they have huge amounts of undistorted acoustic power available.
 

Beershaun

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Doesn't this thread answer your question?


Or are you asking more about the human hearing loudness perception

Which is described here:
 
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mike7877

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Do you know what causes listener fatigue and how it can be measured? I'm reasonably confident that I don't know what causes it, nor what the units of measurement are.

I've been in studios when musicians are being recorded. After a very short while I found trombones close to me made me want to move away. Live instruments (drumkits, some brass etc.) are very loud and are hard to listen comfortably.

It might be that listening to highly accurate reproduction at accurate sound levels is naturally fatiguing and systems that don't induce "listener fatigue" are not accurate.

An accurate system can sound fatiguing as well - if what's coming out is too bright, too loud, or too distorted (for whatever reason). The fatigue from clipping I reckon is from a combination of (usually) loud HF (from the waveform hitting supply like a sprinter into a wall of bricks!), and unpleasant sounding distortion. Mostly the former.

About live brass instruments, it's likely down to amplitude. There's a muscle that tightens your eardrum when constant loud sound is present. It's a natural defense mechanism for hearing protection. The brass, being loud and sporadic, bypasses this protection for the 1/4 - 1/2 second at the beginning of its parts. If it's in and out dozens of times in a few minutes, it adds up.

When loud signal goes down the nerve from your ear to your brain, electrolytes (for transmission) are depleted. If you keep successively stimulating the nerve in its depleted state, that is when damage occurs, and quick (the kind where you can still hear quiet and high (because the cilia in your inner ear are fine), but you have trouble separating voices from background music/noise. Before this serious level of depletion you'd have to be at a loud multi-day concert.
Conversely, if you're drinking a lot, 4-6 hours in a single day might be enough (for someone in average health)

You can train yourself to have conscious control over the tightening of your eardrum, so that when you're in the presence of live brass, you can tighten it up!
Problem is, once you're adept at control, it'll take seriously loud music for autopilot to kick in (I mean pain levels, and you're reminded to tighten yourself from the pain more than it happens automatically).
Like anything automatic, it becomes a background task, but you still have to initialize.

If you get drunk at a concert to the point you're not really aware of your surroundings or the difference between pain level 2 and 8, it's possible you'll just let everything in.

Tip: when tightened, everything but treble is attenuated. Kind of like "Loudness" tone control without the bass. After a couple minutes, bass comes up a bit (not from any slackening, because sensitivity is restored, like any other amplitude adjustment situation unrelated to anatomy). Attenuation depends on taughtness, and there's only really taught or slack. Sure, you can hold half way, but it'll take immense concentration, and your brain won't be able to adjust so that what you're listening to sounds like you've got Bass at +1, Treble +4 (like now when you work your 100W RMS amp and 91dB/w speakers hard with Smashing Pumpkins in the sweet spot of your 9x13x8 foot listening room [if you can imagine])

Comprehensive, and the answer you were looking for, I hope.
Any questions?
 

Blumlein 88

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What don't you use pkane's distort software with the gear you have and find out where you hear distortion? May not be perfect, but it is pretty good and will get you into a ballpark answer.



My personal suggestion is no audible noise, flat FR, and all distortions below 80 db at the speaker inputs and you'll be golden.
 
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mike7877

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I got a bit distracted talking about fatigue, I forgot to address the beginning:

I don't know when fatigue sets in, or how much resolution and dynamic range is lost, but I do know that the onset is quick, single digit minutes usually, and the amount lost is pretty consistent. It likely varies person to person, with increased amplitude bringing the onset sooner for all, usually to the same impairment level.
Past initial onset there's progression, the speed of which is directly tied to just exactly how loudow loud more than too loud the music is. All of this is potentiated to a varied extent derived from brightness, distortiom, health condition and all that other good stuff.
Also it varies day to day, but not a lot (sleep quality and amount is a factor, too).
Things probably change too fast to do a study with multiple people that controls for everything. control for everything.
It'd likely take months (because rest is required), and over that amount of time, some variables (like health and sleep) will skew.
They can be noted but not controlled, so at best I wouldn't envy the people in (or running) the study
 
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mike7877

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What don't you use pkane's distort software with the gear you have and find out where you hear distortion? May not be perfect, but it is pretty good and will get you into a ballpark answer.



My personal suggestion is no audible noise, flat FR, and all distortions below 80 db at the speaker inputs and you'll be golden.

At low levels negative effects aren't imediately apparent. I'll have to gather like 30 tracks I'm very familiar with, become even more familiar with them, then listen blind over time : listen for a week distorted, then non, then distorted, then non - go back and forth twice or three times (4-6 weeks). Of course I won't begin knowing with which version I started. At that point I'll be able to say what's affected and how. Then others will be able to apply the same distortion to the same tracks and listen to the differences themselves.

But since I've already done this experiment, just not in an official capacity (just from my experience with different gear over time), I don't particularly want to do it again.
Some tracks I won't be able to hear any differences, some tracks the difference will be obvious (eg. the texture of a multi-layered phased synth). Of these tracks, some, if repeated for 60 minutes at an average level of 93dB, will cause listening fatigue to beginat 39 minutes instead of 43. Maybe pain starts at 96dB instead of 92.
Ultimately, it's a futile excercise. I'll just be proving to myself what I already know, and others will be no more or less likely to believe me the second time around.

The things I've noted don't need to be quantified exactly because they vary from individual to individual, day to day, track to track. Some things won't even be observable to some people, like listening fatigue, because they always listen at very reasonable levels.

I just want people to know
the things I listed are affected by distortion to varying extents, in various circumstances.

If one found themselves with a new, cleaner, power amp, and noticing: at the same volume level he can now get through the entirety of one of his favourite albums, where with the old amp the highs would, without fail, drop out from listening fatigue at some point during the second last song, this is why.

If someone doesn't notice, great.
If someone does notice? Now there's an explanation!
 
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mike7877

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You keep asking imy question was answered..
I said many posts ago, that while I was thinking about another way to put what I asked in the OP in a different way - another way in case the reason that others weren't trying to answer was because they didn't understand, that I followed the logic and the logic is sound. I answered my question
 

solderdude

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IME listening fatigue is mostly caused by excessive treble or treble peaking. (can be EQ'ed for the most part)
I can imagine clipping can evoke a similar reaction. (EQ is not going to help here)
Boomy lows is also a reason for me. This can be dealt with using EQ or treatment.
With headphones a secondary cause is clamping force to me. (can be lowered in most cases)
'Distortion' in an amp will be too small to affect the FR and to me it is an FR problem.
For distortion under not clipping circumstances to become an issue you either need a tube amp or a faulty SS amp.
 
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