75 years of JBL: 75 years of Loud + Clear!

[OShag]

Lately, it turned out that we have 3 pairs of JBL speakers playing at home.

I'm an old fan of horn speakers, but sometimes they are too big for normal living spaces. I used to have ALTEC A7 VOTT. The JBL Studio 590 still remind me a bit of that cinema sound, even though they're domesticated for home use.

View attachment 252475

I also really like the sound of the small JBL monitors with Class-D amplifiers. Before that I had been listening with Neumann KH120a for 10 years.

View attachment 252478

Lovely system computer audiophile. Is that a phonostage between the TT and that beautiful amp? Is that a 300b amp?

 

[Sal1950]

Sal, just took a look at the HDI-3600. Looks to be a really well designed loudspeaker. I bet they sound wonderful. What do you drive them with? Sensitivity is rated 90db with average 4ohm impedance. Shouldn’t be too difficult to drive.

I drive them with some old Adcom GFA-545 II's
You can see my complete system from the link in my signature.

 

[OShag]

I drive them with some old Adcom GFA-545 II's
You can see my complete system from the link in my signature.

Ok will check it out. Thanks. Those Adcom amps are powerhouses.

 

[GXAlan]

The speakers in place here now are JBL Synthesis Array 1400, a scaled down version of the K2, although the Array 1400 has that really unique horn/ compression design by Greg Timbers, which delivers incredible soundstaging / imaging, bettering the Magico S3.

What’s great about the Array 1400 is that it has better bass than the K2 and Everest because it was voiced for US homes.

How is the soft touch plastic holding up? That Array line would be incredible if it was brought back but had modern HDI horn and better soft touch plastic which doesn’t gum up. I had the Array 880 center which has the same compression drivers as your 1400.

I have the JBL S/2600 Baby Everest as my speaker for dynamics, but my Bose 901’s are incredibly musical and I am lucky enough to have the perfect room and seating positionS. I also have the 708P’s.

 

[OShag]

Hi Alan, great info on comparison to K2. you know about the rubber plastic lol. It’s dreadful. A bit of an eyesore (see pic). Thinking of having a friend of mine who does classic car upholstery craft a leather top for it. But the sound. Greg Timbers is a genius. Got these (and the 880) from an engineering design consultant who worked for Harmon / JBL and with Greg Timbers for years, and now helps emerging companies (such as Vizio) tune the sound of their products and go to market. These were his personal pair. The Magicos were tops. Relegated to a spare bedroom closet at least for now (see pic).

You are very fortunate to have the S/2600. They are rare and beautiful to my eyes anyway. I’m sure they sound incredible? Are the Bose 901s that musical? Its been many years since hearing them and I am encouraged to listen again. They are definitely a classic. Looking at Amir’s review, the 708p looks to be an amazing performer.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Lovely system computer audiophile. Is that a phonostage between the TT and that beautiful amp? Is that a 300b amp?

It is my last variation of a phono preamp modeled after the Shure M65 tube circuit. Yes it is also my latest version of a classic 300B SET amp - on the other picture.

 

[GXAlan]

You are very fortunate to have the S/2600. They are rare and beautiful to my eyes anyway. I’m sure they sound incredible?

They do. When you compare them to the Array 880's in stereo, it's very clear that the more modern speakers present a more detailed image. This is not unlike comparisons between the JBL M2 and the XPL200A. I had the Studio 5 line with the vertical horns (but returned the 590's because it was top-heavy and the sold the 530's) so I have a taste of the vertical horn.

The S/2600 is very natural but I did find that the 16 kHz roll off benefits from a super tweeter (I used the UT-405). The strength of the S2600 is not about the main listening position -- it's how you can sit off to the left or right and surprisingly get a better than expected result.

I used to like Magnepan’s for the ability for music to sound good close and far to speakers, but the JBL S2600 gives you that effect left and right.

There should be comb filtering galore and the stereo balance from the asymmetrical horns should be inconsistent but it works!

Are the Bose 901s that musical? Its been many years since hearing them and I am encouraged to listen again. They are definitely a classic. Looking at Amir’s review, the 708p looks to be an amazing performer.

Yes. I have measured the 901 Series VI in my room and compared it to the original and Series VI ver 2.

Everyone is right that it is unpredictable how the 89% reflected sound will end up sounding in-room. But in my room, it ends up matching surprisingly well to a standard Harman curve with advanced Dirac room EQ

The phantom center is very clean, much more than I would have expected. You do get crossoverless mid range with surprising bass and a superb soundstage. You don’t get imaging in the classic sense, but it’s not boomy or vague either. I actually am loving it for movies due to the excellent speech intelligibility. There’s clear loss of high frequency. Thinking about it, it’s a bit like a great digital recording versus playing something on a 80’s Linn LP12 with the Valhalla/Ittok LVII combo. Even among LP fans, the LP12 supposedly made things simple and lacked micro detail but somehow it’s great to listen to.

 

[garyrc]

How I long for the days when even the simplest of things were beautify made right here in the USA.
Instead of the cheap plastic junk we get from overseas today.

My grandfather had a radio much like this. He also had a console with tubes with pointy tops.

 

[Snoopy]

Was wondering what the opinion here is on the JBL L100 classic 75th anniversary does. They go for like 5000 euro a pair.

 

[garyrc]

Was wondering what the opinion here is on the JBL L100 classic 75th anniversary does. They go for like 5000 euro a pair.

1. A lot depends on how it sounds compared to the original L100. I haven't heard the new one. As far as I can tell, Amirm hasn't reviewed it. I heard the original in many places, under many circumstances.
2. The original, IMO, sounded fairly sweet, well balanced, and did not give offense. I never heard it do really deep bass, or full dynamics (i.e. with instantaenous peaks at over 100 dB to 110 dB, like some of the big JBLs of that time, e.g., the S8R
   
   could; big orchestral recordings sometimes need that, IMO
3. Here is the frequency response of the JBL 4312 professional, a twice improved version of the professional equivalent of the L100 Century.
   
   That looks about like I'd expect, given the sound of the 4312. Although a piano goes down to 27.5Hz, and organs to 16 Hz, orchestral music is rarely scored below 40 Hz, where the 4312 is an O.K. -7 dB. Rating conventionally, the 4312 would be about +/- 3 dB 45Hz to 14KHz.
4. Of course, they probably did their best on the L 100 Classic update, so it might perform better than the L100 Century and the 4310, 4311, 4312.
5. The originals, and vintage improvements 4311 & 4312, sounded great at The Different Fur Trading Company (a recording studio), Sound Genesis (supplier to professionals) but not as startlingly clear as the Klipsch La Scala, Pro Audio Electronics, but not as startlingly clear, detailed, and dynamic as the Klipschorn, and at the store across from the Paramount theater in Oakland (the name escapes me), but not as [etc., etc.] as the JBL Paragon they had raised up on a stage. I was puzzled when at Tower Records (remember them?) the guy in the classical room and I were listening to a violin concerto on some 4311s or 4312s, and he said, "Of course. we can't tell anything on these terrible speakers." There's no pleasing everyone. Summing up, it seemed like the L100 was targeted toward people who could not afford better models from JBL and others, but wanted excellent speakers, nonetheless. They certainly had greater clarity than the typical bookshelf speakers of the age.
6. With a spec for sensitivity of 90 dB/2.83v (1 watt into 8 Ohms)/1 meter, to produce THX's standard peak of 105 dB (above 80Hz), one would need about 120 watts, in a big living room.

 

[thewas]

Here is a measurement of the L100 Classic, definitely more linear than the old models:

Source: https://www.hifitest.de/test/lautsprecher-stereo/jbl-l100-classic-17278

 

[computer-audiophile]

Here is a measurement of the L100 Classic, definitely more linear than the old models:

Source: https://www.hifitest.de/test/lautsprecher-stereo/jbl-l100-classic-17278

The sensitivity of the new ones has decreased a bit, but hardly noticeably. I always look closely at this value, too, because of my tube amplifiers. 90 dB is already a bit low.

 

[mhardy6647]

90 dB is already a bit low.

We do live in a slightly different world than most folks @ ASR, methinks, @computer-audiophile


(although, needless to say, I concur -- and the fleapower camp's rap on modern JBL loudspeakers is that they're not so easy to drive anymore )

 

[anmpr1]

1) The original, IMO, sounded fairly sweet, well balanced, and did not give offense. I never heard it do really deep bass, or full dynamics (i.e. with instantaenous peaks at over 100 dB to 110 dB, like some of the big JBLs of that time, e.g., the S8R could; big orchestral recordings sometimes need that, IMO

2) The originals, and vintage improvements 4311 & 4312, sounded great... but not as startlingly clear as the Klipsch La Scala... They certainly had greater clarity than the typical bookshelf speakers of the age. 3) With a spec for sensitivity of 90 dB/2.83v (1 watt into 8 Ohms)/1 meter... 4) I was puzzled when at Tower Records (remember them?) the guy in the classical room and I were listening to a violin concerto on some 4311s or 4312s, and he said, "Of course. we can't tell anything on these terrible speakers." There's no pleasing everyone.

1) In a secondary system I have a set of 'late model' L100. Sometimes I think they sound horrible. Thin and weak. Other times I think they add 'magic' to the music, and I wouldn't ever get rid of them. I think my ears change from day to day. For sure, L100 (and the 4311 series) need a particular placement to approach anything like balanced sound. What loudspeaker doesn't? For many, turning down the 'presence' control will be best. I use them with presence set to flat, and the treble up two notches. It works for me. Keep in mind that the 12 inch woofer is a low mid range, so a sub could help.

2) I have a set of LaScala, and find the sound compelling. Much better in a larger space than any 'box' speaker I've dealt with. No one here on ASR thinks that way. One of us is wrong.

The 'typical' well-regarded bookshelf speaker of the age was an acoustic suspension design. Think AR or KLH. I could never understand them. Miles Davis advertised AR loudspeakers. But I think he was not sincere. Miles knew what a horn sounded like, and it didn't sound like an AR loudspeaker. In the ad, Miles was giving the 'fist'. I had to laugh when I saw that. The folks in New England (Aczel called them the 'polite' crowd) probably had no idea. Tom Wolfe or Marshall McLuhan could have clued them in. But by then it might have been Teledyne calling the shots. You sell your company to a large faceless conglomerate, and things are bound to change--usually not for the better.

3) Julian Hirsch, without specifying specifically frequency, measured sensitivity at 96 dB/watt/meter (I'm doing this from memory, so I could have it all wrong). That seems a bit generous. JBL listed the 4311 at 91dB, swept from 500Hz to 2.5KHz. From my experience, 10 watts of tube per channel will get you moderate sound enjoyment, but you really need at least 40 glass watts to get it going. With solid state, there is no real upper limit before you are driven out of the room.

4) Tower was the place, back in the day. Below are two funny clips of Van Dyke Parks, interviewed outside of Tower. Encapsulates the era.

[As far as the new model's 'value'? I understand they are made in Malaysia, or Indonesia? That is too much, if you consider parts, labor, fit and finish. If it was made in USA, you could understand the price point. Note: this has nothing to do with intrinsic quality, but rather cost to manufacture. Think guitars. A top tier imported Schecter C1 will run you about $1500.00. A USA custom shop model will run you twice that, for essentially the same quality.]

 

[garyrc]

I think my ears change from day to day.

We had discussion of this sort of thing a few years ago on AVS. Many agreed that their ears seemed to change from day to day, or maybe changes in mood altered perception of music and reproduction. With a (treated) temperature controlled room, buried in the house where the humidity seems about the same at all times, with the same seating, with the solid state equipment warmed up an average of 25 minutes, or so ... what is going on?

I have a set of LaScala, and find the sound compelling. Much better in a larger space than any 'box' speaker I've dealt with. No one here on ASR thinks that way.

I think that way! IMO in our 4,250 cu. ft. treated room, our Klipschorns with a subwoofer (Xover @ 40 Hz) sound "compelling," "better than any 'box' speaker." I'm confident that La Scalas with a subwoofer would too.

The 'typical' well-regarded bookshelf speaker of the age was an acoustic suspension design. Think AR or KLH. I could never understand them.

Nor could I. Klipsch, JBL, carefully adjusted Altec, EV all, all horns at least in the mid and treble regions, sounded much more like the orchestras I used to play in, as well as listen to from various close-up audience positions. And Miles sounded much more like Jazz trumpeters I knew. A very knowledgible friend took home a set of very expensive Infinities and A-B'd them against his old, old EVs in Aristorat enclosures, Licensed by Klipsch.

The EV's took them, hands down.

3) Julian Hirsch, without specifying specifically frequency, measured sensitivity at 96 dB/watt/meter (I'm doing this from memory, so I could have it all wrong). That seems a bit generous.

I seem to remember the L100 Century being rated at 42dB EIA, and the Klipschorn at 54 EIA.
Adding in the 50 watt fudge factor that transforms EIA into db/watt/meter, that would make the old L100 92 dB/watt/meter (and the Khorn 104 dB/watt/meter, in that time period, serving as a check on the 50 watt figure).

 

[GXAlan]

We had discussion of this sort of thing a few years ago on AVS. Many agreed that their ears seemed to change from day to day, or maybe changes in mood altered perception of music and reproduction.

I was doing a comparison of two recordings. On day one, I was able to do an ABX test and prove that I liked one more than the other with statistical significance. I couldn’t hear the difference but one of the recordings trigger the ASMR-like tingle more.

Then the next day, neither recording generated the ASMR effect.

It makes me wonder how much of audiophilia is chasing that first impression which is real but we acclimate to it after a while.

 

[garyrc]

It makes me wonder how much of audiophilia is chasing that first impression which is real but we acclimate to it after a while.

Interesting. According to Berlyne, one of the variables that triggers cortical arousal is novelty.
Perhaps, on your day two, there was less novelty, because you had already experienced the ASMR-like reaction on day one. [Berlyne's other arousal triggering variables are size, brightness, loudness, complexity, surprise, and others I don't remember.]

I often experience an ASMR-like tingle during music I love, particularly climactic music at relatively high SPL. I would get it when playing in an orchestra (e.g. the climax/ending of The Great Gate of Kiev), or playing music on my sound system (e.g. the end of a Beethoven or Mahler symphony, Fanfare for the Common Man, The Firebird, and many more, but, true enough, not every time.

Berlyne, Aesthetics and Psychobiology (book)

 

[computer-audiophile]

The 'typical' well-regarded bookshelf speaker of the age was an acoustic suspension design. Think AR or KLH.

Thank you for reminding me about KLH. It looks like they are still building beautiful classics today. I didn't know that. I like that look. It's probably an old habit.

KLH Model Five Acoustic Suspension Floorstanding Loudspeaker

KLH has reinvented the iconic Model Five Floorstanding Speaker! Large retro-styled three-way loudspeaker combines power with sound accuracy.

klhaudio.eu

By the way, I had the AR3a at the beginning of my hi-fi biography. There was once a package sold with Thorens TD160, New-Acustic-Dimension Receiver (NAD) and AR3a. That was at that time already above average for normal living rooms. I didn't know anyone who owned large horn speakers privately back then. I knew them only as club PA.

 

[mhardy6647]

The KLH is a 'rebooted' company -- the name had been more or less dragged through the gutter as something of a ghost brand for two to three decades previously. Now it is a fairly serious endeavor, although the Asian-made loudspeakers seem very expensive compared to some models from other brands such as "Polk" (again, the brand name is something of a reboot, if one with less checkered past than KLH) and Wharfedale. To the current KLH's credit, they have stayed true to Henry Kloss' devotion to acoustic suspension loudspeaker designs, unfashionable though they are in the 2020s.

https://klhaudio.com/history/ They skip over a little bit -- from the purchase of KLH by Singer (the sewing machine people) in the 1960s... up to 2017.
This article does, too, but it gives a bit more perspective.

Restless retiree rebuilds storied speaker brand - Indianapolis Business Journal

In the little less than two years since Dave Kelley bought KLH, the company has developed more than a dozen new audio products.

www.ibj.com

EDIT: and, as long as I am at it:

https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/the-audio-vault/loudspeakers/80275-klh-audio-rises-from-the-grave

In between their storied origins and the 2017-ish reboot, KLH loudspeakers were being sold by the likes of "Best Buy" in the US, and were cut from rather different cloth (so to speak).

source: https://reverb.com/item/69920845-klh-912b-floorstanding-3-way-speakers-black

source; https://www.ebay.com/itm/166193260905

A very generic pair of small KLH branded 3-ways. Extremely similar "monkey coffins" were sold by Yamaha and Radio Shack (under their Optimus brand, and later branded RCA). Commodity loudspeakers.

 

[computer-audiophile]

The KLH is a 'rebooted' company -- the name had been more or less dragged through the gutter as something of a ghost brand for two to three decades previously. ...

Thank you for your insights regarding the KLH brand. Interesting story. I just noticed that today I mostly only deal with such retrospectives. There is not much left to do actively in the audio hobby.