KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

[KMO]

No, you do not. Not if the crossover is in DSP.

Reread what I wrote. The DSP is built in to the speakers. It's not in your phone, or over the internet.

The discussion was about interoperability with other devices/formats/standards, like WiSa - someone pointed out that the the analogue inputs won't become obsolete - then someone misinterpreted the discussion to be talking about reliability.

Which you can talk about, but then don't try to make out the point about the analogue inputs not becoming obsolete has anything to do with it.

 

[MCH]

No, you do not. Not if the crossover is in DSP.

This is interesting for me to know (never owned active speakers).
Are you talking about failure or obsolescence? Can the dsp crossovers of an active speaker stop working just because the manufacturer doesn't update software or whatever anymore? I always thought this would never happen..

 

[KMO]

Can the dsp crossovers of an active speaker stop working just because the manufacturer doesn't update software or whatever anymore? I always thought this would never happen..

No, of course not. People are confusing two different things.

Main thing I'd be worried about is can I still control the damned things without the phone app in 40 years? (Or even now - I don't have a compatible phone...) I believe all the key functions are available via buttons and remote, but you might lose access to the EQ tuning stuff. Basic stuff like volume and input selection are okay though.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Reread what I wrote. The DSP is built in to the speakers. It's not in your phone, or over the internet.

The discussion was about interoperability with other devices/formats/standards, like WiSa - someone pointed out that the the analogue inputs won't become obsolete - then someone misinterpreted the discussion to be talking about reliability.

Which you can talk about, but then don't try to make out the point about the analogue inputs not becoming obsolete has anything to do with it.

Yes, I was talking about reliability/failure, not obsolescence.

 

[Vacceo]

No, of course not. People are confusing two different things.

Main thing I'd be worried about is can I still control the damned things without the phone app in 40 years? (Or even now - I don't have a compatible phone...) I believe all the key functions are available via buttons and remote, but you might lose access to the EQ tuning stuff. Basic stuff like volume and input selection are okay though.

The set includes a remote, so you can control volume and sources with it.

 

[AnotherAudioMan]

No, of course not. People are confusing two different things.

Main thing I'd be worried about is can I still control the damned things without the phone app in 40 years? (Or even now - I don't have a compatible phone...) I believe all the key functions are available via buttons and remote, but you might lose access to the EQ tuning stuff. Basic stuff like volume and input selection are okay though.

Honestly, the LS60w announcement has been eye-opening for me.

I used to think the borderline tribalism against active/ all in one speakers was about people feeling like a newer, alternative approach to Hi-Fi undermines their own systems. But after a month reading LS60w posts across multiple forums, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the opposition is just rooted in scepticism of the unknown and unfamiliar.

So many commonly repeated issues that don't really hold up to scrutiny.

 

[Vacceo]

Honestly, the LS60w announcement has been eye-opening for me.

I used to think the borderline tribalism against active/ all in one speakers was about people feeling like a newer, alternative approach to Hi-Fi undermines their own systems. But after a month reading LS60w posts across multiple forums, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the opposition is just rooted in scepticism of the unknown and unfamiliar.

So many commonly repeated issues that don't really hold up to scrutiny.

Some concerns are valid. I am a current user of an LS50 Wireless II that sound daily for a nice amount of hours.

I think they are an outstanding product and honestly, I hope they last as much as the multichannel set of KEF IQ´s (almost two decades!!). In fact, I really hope Kef expand their active systems into multichannel territory as the performance and convenience is outstanding.

So all in all, I do understand the worries because they are damn good systems and it´d be a shame that they cannot be repaired and mantained further down the line.

 

[KMO]

I share some of the concerns, but agree a lot seem to be overplayed.

Biggest one for me is the reliance on a phone app, which may well have a lifespan of maybe 5 years after end of production.

Phones throw out backwards compatibility so readily it would take continuous active effort from KEF to keep it working, whereas a PC control I'd trust to last far longer. Or an integrated web interface would be ideal. Or, at a minimum, a published set of telnet-type control codes, as you see for integration in receivers. Then anyone could knock up a replacement control interface, rather than being reliant on the app.

I see no real reason to be any more worried about their reliability than any other modern amplifier. But when they do fail, if not repairable, you're potentially throwing away a much bigger and more expensive piece of kit. But on the other hand, given the integration, and the potential financial loss, there should be more people willing to pay for repair, hence making the economics of providing the repair more viable. Things are generally hard to repair because they're cheap to replace. Something not cheap to replace should hopefully have more chance of repair.

(It would be nice to see internals - are the amps separated from the control board sufficiently that a third-party amp replacement in the distant future might be conceivable? Or is it so integrated that would never fly? I would expect an amp to fail ahead of any of the digital bits).

Lack of nicer integration into multichannel isn't ideal, but that's really a complaint about lack of icing on top, and it's not really KEF's fault. You can just use the analogue inputs from pre-outs fine, and I'm sure they'll still beat any passive thing with analogue crossover, despite the extra A->D cycle.

And sure, it would be nice to have a "simple" version without all the apps, but economics wouldn't realistically make it cheaper, any more than AV pre-pros end up cheaper than ones with integrated amps.

 

[AnotherAudioMan]

Some concerns are valid. I am a current user of an LS50 Wireless II that sound daily for a nice amount of hours.

I think they are an outstanding product and honestly, I hope they last as much as the multichannel set of KEF IQ´s (almost two decades!!). In fact, I really hope Kef expand their active systems into multichannel territory as the performance and convenience is outstanding.

So all in all, I do understand the worries because they are damn good systems and it´d be a shame that they cannot be repaired and mantained further down the line.

Yes, some of the concerns are valid, but a lot of the concerns are based on accepting speculation as reasonable assumption.

I'm all for scepticism, except when its mixed with cynicism and hypothetical issues become accepted as fact.

I have an pair of original LS50Ws which got a LOT of heavy use and broke out of warranty. This was around two years ago. I contacted Kef and they were happy to repair them for reasonable fee (around £200).

Frankly, they were delightful to deal with and were nothing less than positive and enthusiastic. Obviously your experiences may differ to my own, but from what I've seen, the vast majority of critical and sceptical discourse around the long term reliability and repairability of Kef's active speakers is lead by people who don't own them and never intend to, rather than crowds of angry customers who've bought unrepairable landfill products.

 

[Soniclife]

Phones throw out backwards compatibility so readily it would take continuous active effort from KEF to keep it working, whereas a PC control I'd trust to last far longer. Or an integrated web interface would be ideal. Or, at a minimum, a published set of telnet-type control codes, as you see for integration in receivers. Then anyone could knock up a replacement control interface, rather than being reliant on the app.

Like this....

GitHub - kraih/kefctl: Command line application for controlling KEF speakers

Command line application for controlling KEF speakers - kraih/kefctl

github.com

And this

GitHub - N0ciple/pykefcontrol: Python library for controling KEF speakers

Python library for controling KEF speakers. Contribute to N0ciple/pykefcontrol development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

 

[KMO]

I have an pair of original LS50Ws which got a LOT of heavy use and broke out of warranty. This was around two years ago. I contacted Kef and they were happy to repair them for reasonable fee (around £200).

KEF have certainly had their share of duffer electronics over the years. Some of their subwoofers like the PSW-2000(?) pretty much all failed somewhere in the 5-10 year mark.

That failure was universal enough that IIRC cheap third party repair services did become a thing.

But to my knowledge KEF have always been pretty good at offering their own repair and parts for all their kit, at a pretty sane cost out of warranty.

Like this....

Fantastic. Although that very page provides another data point for the reliability discussion:

"UNMAINTAINED: Since my LS50Ws broke almost immediately after the warranty ran out."

He does not relate whether he asked about repair, as AnotherAudioMan did.

 

[samysound]

Can the electronics module on the ls60 be removed by the end user and replaced/sent in for service? Or will the entire speaker have to be shipped for repair?

A bit of of a hassle to pack and ship a 70lb speaker. Also always a shipping handling risk with large items like this….

 

[Zvu]

.... Things are generally hard to repair because they're cheap to replace....

Not for long. Could very well be that everything will again be so expensive that repair will be quite viable option, if it is to judge about the prices of literally everything from last couple of years.

 

[Mnyb]

Of course... "whose outputs are filtered" meant "with filtered outputs", now edited for clarity.

... on the primary speaker. Digital inputs only on the secondary speaker, RJ45 or wireless (owner's manual p 97).

Did I misunderstand what this means? (If so, sorry @Mnyb) Its EQ options, FIR filters and digital crossover are services implemented in the DSP, so I understood this to mean "in the event of failed electronics (eg blown SMPS) the speakers can still be used in passive mode". That would not be possible.

cheers, Tom

I mean when roon and tidal Spotify et al are gone and all other streaming apps , you can still conect something else to the speaker trough a standard input

 

[Descartes]

That's not how this speaker works. Its analog inputs are routed internally to an ADC whose digital outputs are processed by the DSP and then converted back to analog by an internal DAC [edit: whose outputs are filtered and] with filtered outputs that are routed to the three different driver amps.

In the event that "all apps and services have failed", the 70 lb speaker goes back to KEF who swaps out the FRU (field replaceable unit) and ships the repaired speaker back to you or your dealer. Your failed FRU is eventually repaired for use in a different customer's refurbished product. Your warranty replacement time is subject to KEF FRU inventory, which in turn depends on their procurement of chips, PCBs etc which may be in short supply. Owners of other DSP active speakers including D&D and Kii Three have reported long warranty repair times on the scale of many months.

I have the greatest respect for the superb engineering that's gone into LS60 development. We do need to have realistic expectations however for the reliability of this product given its complexity. Failure rates have been reportedly been high for the active LS50 models.

Where did you see that I owned the first version since they came out and they are still working fine!

 

[Vacceo]

Not for long. Could very well be that everything will again be so expensive that repair will be quite viable option, if it is to judge about the prices of literally everything from last couple of years.

Keep in mind that EU is pushing for right to repair laws, and other big markets like the US and Canada are probably considering the same, so chances are repairs will become commonplace, as it always should have been.

 

[Zvu]

Keep in mind that EU is pushing for right to repair laws, and other big markets like the US and Canada are probably considering the same, so chances are repairs will become commonplace, as it always should have been.

If EU really wanted to do it, they would have done it. Last few months they showed what can be done when there is will. Truth is - they don't want it because too much money is at stake so they procrastinate.

I'm sure it will be done eventually, just a couple of milions tons of electronic waste later.

 

[Vacceo]

Yes, some of the concerns are valid, but a lot of the concerns are based on accepting speculation as reasonable assumption.

I'm all for scepticism, except when its mixed with cynicism and hypothetical issues become accepted as fact.

I have an pair of original LS50Ws which got a LOT of heavy use and broke out of warranty. This was around two years ago. I contacted Kef and they were happy to repair them for reasonable fee (around £200).

Frankly, they were delightful to deal with and were nothing less than positive and enthusiastic. Obviously your experiences may differ to my own, but from what I've seen, the vast majority of critical and sceptical discourse around the long term reliability and repairability of Kef's active speakers is lead by people who don't own them and never intend to, rather than crowds of angry customers who've bought unrepairable landfill products.

I personally think that height speakers are the best case to demonstrate why going active can be a great idea.

Elevation speakers have a number of constrains that a dsp and direct amp can potentially solve better than pure size and a crossover.

If Kef designs a set of elevation, surround and center speakers to match the LS50W/60, for me it will be a glad goodbye to boxed amps and processors. Add the capacity to use Dirac and that can be next gen home theatre.

 

[ChrisHeinonen]

But to my knowledge KEF have always been pretty good at offering their own repair and parts for all their kit, at a pretty sane cost out of warranty.

One time when I was trying to research reliability, which included going through reviews on websites to see what people said, the sole negative review for an Oppo Blu-ray player was because after the warranty had expired, Oppo charged them $17 to replace the drive mechanism (they even picked up shipping back), which seemed to be an incredibly good deal to repair a $500 player to me, but some people have very different expectations.

 

[samysound]

In the USA KEF offers a 5 year warranty on the drivers and 2 years on the electronics. I think extending the electronics warranty to 5 years on the LS60 would probably add some confidence.
Source:

Warranty Info

us.kef.com