KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

[pablolie]

Given there isn’t a dedicated center speaker in this family, what would a 5.0 LS setup look like… 2x LS60w, 2x LS50w II, 1x LS50 Meta (sold as LS50c)? Seems a shame to have the center not be active in that arrangement, but I’m not sure if there’s an alternative - maybe buy another set of LS50w IIs and just use one?

(For the record, this is something I’m actively considering taking the plunge on.)

I honestly have never ever, not once, felt I need a center speaker. My stereo setup presents movie dialogue very nice and very sharply -and yes, sharpin the center when it needs to be. Also... when people say center speakers help with dialogue... who says it's supposed to come from the center? 1950s analogue TV technology, when the TV with a single speaker sat in the middle of the room?

I think it's simple - unless you believe in the power of a well set up stereo system (and I personally think anything else diminishes presentation purity, but that's just me) the LS60 are not for you. Nor are the Kii. You'll have to weak and hence diminish what they were designed for. Why bother? I don't hate surround sound (I have seen it work well, but it's not for me), but these speakers are clearly not designed for it.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

So it isn’t wireless, and only partially self-powered: I give you the McRoy KEF/Jamo ‘Dull Blade’

Well-massaged with DSP, it works.

 

[pablolie]

So it isn’t wireless, and only partially self-powered...

I dont work for KEF... but why would you say that? They are fully wireless (I'd still use ethernet or SPDIF) and they are fully active and self-powered off-the-wall (can't expect them to provide solar panels or something right?).

 

[DavidMcRoy]

I dont work for KEF... but why would you say that? They are fully wireless (I'd still use ethernet or SPDIF) and they are fully active and self-powered off-the-wall (can't expect them to provide solar panels or something right?).

I was referring to the thing in the photo that I hobble together, not the KEF LS60.

 

[Sancus]

Also... when people say center speakers help with dialogue... who says it's supposed to come from the center? 1950s analogue TV technology, when the TV with a single speaker sat in the middle of the room?

The utility of a center speaker is not a "thing that people say". It's established by research that it sounds better, because phantom center always creates problems such as acoustic crosstalk/cancellation. This is well documented and explained in Toole's book.

I'm not saying this to convince you. Doesn't matter if you use a center or not, and there are valid reasons not to. But the utility of the center is not some audiophile myth based on personal anecdotes. It's as close to a fact as any of the research this forum is based on.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

I dont work for KEF... but why would you say that? They are fully wireless (I'd still use ethernet or SPDIF) and they are fully active and self-powered off-the-wall (can't expect them to provide solar panels or something right?).

I was referring to the thing in the photo that I hobble together, not the KEF LS60.

The utility of a center speaker is not a "thing that people say". It's established by research that it sounds better, because phantom center always creates problems such as acoustic crosstalk/cancellation. This is well documented and explained in Toole's book.

I'm not saying this to convince you. Doesn't matter if you use a center or not, and there are valid reasons not to. But the utility of the center is not some audiophile myth based on personal anecdotes. It's as close to a fact as any of the research this forum is based on.

I couldn’t agree more. I’ll never go back to not having a center channel speaker for video or music in my main system. It’s indispensable. I consider it the heart of the system.

I fully understand why they’re controversial: they’re not particularly easy to set up correctly without fine-tunable delay, levels and EQ, and they have to be carefully integrated with the sub or subs, and that’s seldom ever even achieved in two-channel systems, where I often find phasey bass and all kinds of screwed-up things going on when the user doesn’t know how to do it right.

You can’t just plop one in there and expect it to work well without careful attention. (On top of that, MTM center-channel speakers can’t possible create an adequately wide sweet spot/area. I get great results with planar (Magnepan) or concentric (KEF and Tannoy) drivers. And that explains, in turn, why subs are controversial in some circles. The approach should be, make the subs and the rest of the system integrate with the “main,” center-channel speaker.

Likewise, those who dismiss immersive audio formats such as Dolby Atmos are understandably turned-off by what happens when everything isn’t dialed-in just so. I know first hand how much patience is required to tweak a 7.5.4 system. Nobody said it would be easy.

Oh, and when I watch a c.1950s or ‘60s stereo movie with panned dialog through a Dolby Atmos 2.0 to 7.5.4 upmix, the dialog tracks are still perfectly panned. (I happen to have stumbled across one on the HBO app’s TCM hub last night.)

 

[muad]

So it isn’t wireless, and only partially self-powered: I give you the McRoy KEF/Jamo ‘Dull Blade’

Well-massaged with DSP, it works.

I gotta say, that thing actually is attractive. If you showed me a pic of that at some high end audio show, I wouldn't question it. I think it's the color coordination.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

I gotta say, that thing actually is attractive. If you showed me a pic of that at some high end audio show, I wouldn't question it. I think it's the color coordination.

Well, it’s a stack of competently designed commercial products, so it’s hard to take credit for that.

 

[Vacceo]

This is what the upcoming LS60C will be for - center the drivers and have it like a sound bar on top of a media center (it will need feet to raise it up for the 5" driver clearance). Then add surround decoding, wireless support for multichannel and dirac. (This product has not been rumored - but I figure if I talk about it enough then maybe Kef will do it ).

LS60C + LS60 Pair (LR) + 2x LS50WII Pair (surround) + 2x LSXII Pairs (Heights) + Subs = Killer 7.X.4 HT setup for ~$17K + subs.

Well, you know some of the actual demiurges on Kef have posted here, so...

 

[Pearljam5000]

They sound nice in the sound test

 

[AudioGod66]

They sound nice in the sound test

Yes Kef are no doubt going to have lots of great press.
Reliability is another matter. I have used various active speakers for over 20 years , and the old ones with lead solder are still going strong - the more modern garbage, sorry! Kef have tons of failures with there active speakers thanks to EU bs. The British army rejected there garbage due to reliability concerns.
So delude yourselves this is going to last 15 to 20 years. Ten grand in Australia! How about 10 year warranty?

 

[Simply Stereo]

LS60's just started shipping to us! We should have a pair here Friday or Monday. Very excited.

 

[q2klepto]

So i just preordered a pair from a dealer - going to use them wired via RCA to my Left and Right on my LCR front stage. With the LS50 Meta as the center.
Currently have 4 x Monolith 15"s crossed at 80hz, may be able to cross at 30hz with these.

May upgrade the center to a Genelec 8361a, might be a better match with the LS60s

I'm thinking theres a good chance i wont be able to ABX the LS60s and LS50 Metas w/ subs in my space to be honest... we'll see.

 

[MattHooper]

I honestly have never ever, not once, felt I need a center speaker. My stereo setup presents movie dialogue very nice and very sharply -and yes, sharpin the center when it needs to be.

I had a pair of Spendor S3/5 speakers either side of my 42" plasma (my first "home theater" from many years ago) that worked brilliantly without a center channel. They "disappeared" as apparent sound sources so well even off axis the dialogue and sound seemed to be coming right from the screen.

That was not the case however when I moved to a big projection set up for my home theater. Even my Hales monitors (which image amazingly well) couldn't compensate for that situation. They have to be placed about 10 feet apart, on either side of the screen. If you are one person sitting in the center of the screen then yest the phantom dialogue image (if centered) seems centered and coming from the screen. But the illusion is very tenuous and even slight movement sends the sound shifting side to side.
A center channel solves this problem.

Also... when people say center speakers help with dialogue... who says it's supposed to come from the center? 1950s analogue TV technology, when the TV with a single speaker sat in the middle of the room?
.

A center channel does not mean dialogue automatically comes from the center of the screen. It occures wherever the mixer has steered the dialogue in the mix, which can be in the centre, the extreme sides, or anything in between. In most cases if you are playing, say, a modern blu ray in stereo it will have been downmixed from the actual surround mix. You are more likely to hear the original mix, in that case, with a center channel (and surround sound). However that much matters to someone...

 

[Simply Stereo]

Having no center is fine as long as you’re the only one watching and you sit perfectly center. It can be cool in a way considering that it will image the dialogue in between the speakers which are usually much higher up than a traditional center — usually right in the middle of the screen.

However, if you have friends, which hopefully most of you do, a center is a necessity. I don’t know how anyone who is critical of sound that would be happy with dialogue sounding like it’s coming out of the nearest left or right front speaker instead of the middle of the screen.

Having a center would also relieve the front channels of some work too, which could be a benefit in a lot of cases as well.

 

[Simply Stereo]

A center channel does not mean dialogue automatically comes from the center of the screen. It occures wherever the mixer has steered the dialogue in the mix, which can be in the centre, the extreme sides, or anything in between.

Hopefully Atmos 2.0 or something similar comes out which will be truly object based, and allow us to input tv size (width) and location of left and right speakers in relation, to truly get sounds to come from where they should. For instance, the location of a right front speaker behind a 140” screen vs a right front 2’ outside of a 75” tv on a tv stand are vastly different in relation to action on screen. I wish there was a way to accommodate for that in decoding.

 

[Newman]

Atmos 2.0

I sure hope that isn’t a reference to channels!!

 

[Simply Stereo]

I sure hope that isn’t a reference to channels!!

 

[KMO]

Having no center is fine as long as you’re the only one watching and you sit perfectly center.

I agree the centre is mainly about avoiding collapse of the image to a side speaker for off-centre listeners. That drives me nuts, but I guess if you don't have a centre long enough, you might grow to tolerate it (much as you grow to tolerate a centre being vertically offset).

But you still lose something without a centre, even in the "sit perfectly centre" scenario - width, or at least a control over width. Something centrally imaged from 2 speakers 60 degrees apart sounds quite different from something coming from a point source.

Multichannel mixers will take advantage of that "width" control. They can choose whether they want something in front to be wide or narrow.

Upmixers let the listener lock this in, with the good ones like Dolby Pro Logic II Music making it a multi-step control.

But in proper multichannel music, smart dynamic choice by the mixing engineer of when to use L+R and/or C can be quite effective.

It's more flexible for the "image size" control scale to go all the way from "single speaker" to "all speakers", rather than being limited to no fewer than 2 speakers.

 

[MattHooper]

But you still lose something without a centre, even in the "sit perfectly centre" scenario - width, or at least a control over width. Something centrally imaged from 2 speakers 60 degrees apart sounds quite different from something coming from a point source.

I also find that the addition of a good center channel makes the sound more full and timbrally rich. Something about just having more speakers producing the sound, especially of course if it's mixed for L/C/R/surround.