bizarre to use the word "objective" here when your next assertion is 100% subjective
That's not really a subjective opinion. That's an objective reality of normal household conditions. Extra headroom at frequencies at which you are not output limited are 100% meaningless. 200dB at 90Hz is 0% better than 120dB at 90Hz in a typical house, as both are entirely unlimited. If you live in a commercial theater, then things are different, and that's why those subs usually prioritize 30-40Hz output. I'm speaking of home use.
This is simply not true. You are literally talking to somebody who bought one of these to insure he would have practically unlimited clean headroom on music material, no matter how big of a room I ever put the sub in. That it has good enough response <20hz was just a bonus.
What is your listening distance? Maybe it's large enough where the Funk's extra 40Hz+ output really is better. It would have to be huge, though(like 8m+ at least), I would think.
I understand that there's an emotional investment, but we're just looking at objective CEA-2010 data here. I'm not trying to say you made the wrong choice. In fact, based on a couple things you've said, I think you actually made the correct choice, namely
Their cabinetry is and always has been so inept I think you'd have to be out of your mind to take that option.
We have to live with these items, after all. If the cabinetry is too ugly for you, then I can see where it would be worth it to spend a bit more for a little less performance.
I chimed in not to say you made the wrong choice, but just to make it more clear to others reading this that by going with Funk you are paying a premium for the gorgeous cabinetry. To many out there, that premium is probably worth it. Funk makes outstanding subs that also look outstanding. However, for someone who doesn't care as much about aesthetics(like me), Rythmik, JTR, PSA, Arendal, etc. offer noticeably better performance for the same dollar in normal sized living rooms.
Also, it seems strange to me to call another 18 sub a copy of another when 1. The cabinet is different, 2. the amp is different(exactly equal), 3. The driver is different(JTR driver is better). By this same logic, you could say that the Funk is a copy of any 18" sub that came before it. Essentially all subs are copies of any same driver size sub that came before them? Is that what we're saying now?
When did the 18.0E come out(genuinely curious)?. When did the S1 come out(again, genuinely curious)?
Sorry for the long post. It just want to make things more clear for people in the market who may be using this list for shopping purposes. People can view
@sweetchaos excellent spreadsheet and compare the CEA-2010 performance of JTR vs Funk for themselves and see what we're talking about. Then they can decide what's more important to them. I'll try to lay it out a little below, though.
A few things to consider, for those in the market and reading along.
- Both subs are well below audible thresholds for distortion. JTR beats Funk here at some frequencies and vice versa, but it's essentially irrelevant.
- Both subs have inaudible group delay. Again JTR is better at some frequencies, Funk at others, but it's irrelevant for both.
- Both subs have infinite headroom above 25Hz or so in room, so any performance above that is irrelevant(200dB is equivalent to 130dB @90Hz if the loudest you'll ever reach is 120dB).
- Focus especially on the distortion limited output below 20Hz, as that's usually the only difference with subs of this size(unless you live in a commercial theater
). Extra headroom at frequencies where headroom is infinite matters not
The Funk does have some real advantages, though:
1. 10 band parametric EQ. If you don't have a way to EQ, then this is basically an automatic win for Funk, as bass EQ is necessary for good sound. If you have other EQ though, (Dirac, Trinnov, Audyssey, etc.) then this is mostly irrelevant.
@temps , you mentioned that you use this, so it's definitely a huge plus in your situation. An EQed sub will always sound better than an un-EQed sub, no matter how much more sub 20Hz output the un-EQed sub has.
2. Different high pass and low pass slope options. This is really awesome and definitely an automatic win if you don't have another way to get this with the JTR(miniDSP2x4HD). Not many subs that I can think of provide this, so kudos to Funk for doing this.
3. Aesthetics. The cabinetry of Funk subwoofers is outstanding, and if you're someone who cares a lot about how it looks, this alone might be worth the loss in performance.
All of those matter, and while the 4th one is the only one that applies to my situation(with a DDRC88A and 2x4HD), it was important enough to me that at one time I was seriously considering Funk. I ended up getting a ~30-40% off (black friday + buying multiple)on the RS2s, but had that not happened, I really was considering Funk.
I view Funk kinda like the Salk of high performance subwoofers. Not as good price/performance as the best out there (HSU > Rythmik > JTR, etc.), but legitimately awesome performance, and much nicer to look at. Similar to how you can buy the Salk BMR for a little more than the Philharmonic BMR, with the difference being in the finish.
Back to price/performance, though(and for those reading). I actually don't think either of these subs(Funk 18.0 or JTR RS1) are the best values out there. Ported variants generally offer much better price/performance, and I'm
very skeptical of any audible "sealed advantage" for music over really lowed tuned ported subs. I think this is mostly based on principals that used to be true, but no longer are. I don't by any means claim this as fact, though. It's just my current view.
If you really want sealed, the RS2 is a much better value than the RS1 imo. It gives you twice the performance for less than twice the price. Comparing the three sealed options (18.0, RS1, RS2) on pure price/performance at the point where the distortion becomes too high to meet spec(subtract $150 for the Funk if you don't need a grill):
Rich (BB code):
Funk 18.0($4,300), JTR RS1($2,899), JTR S2 ($3,499) , ~JTR RS2($3,899)
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10Hz: 94.4, 96.1, 100.3, ~101/102.3
12Hz: 98.5, 100.1, 103.3, ~104/105.3
15hz: 102.2, 105.4, 108.7, ~109/110.7
20Hz: 106.6, 111.1, 115.1, ~116/117.1
25Hz: 111.8, 115.6, 119.7, ~120/121.7
30Hz: 117.9, 119.6, 124.8, ~125/126.8
By 30Hz all 3 are already above reference in anechoic conditions, so anything above that becomes meaningless in a normal house with room gain. In a commercial sized theater space, note that the Funk passes the RS1 by about 2dB(and stays that way) above 40Hz, so it might be a better subwoofer for that environment. If you've got a theater that big, though, you'd be even much better off with something like the JTR Orbit Shifter LFU, Orbit Shifter Pro, or one of the big JBL Cinema subs.
Also, even though the RS1 does have better performance, the difference isn't going to be large. They will sound identical above 20Hz or so at normal volumes. Below 25Hz the RS1 will only sound better if you listen at movie theater levels, and by 30Hz they'll be identical. For music, below 30Hz is a very small minority of content(though it does exist). Vast majority of content I'd be willing to bet they sound exactly the same at most levels that people listen to.
Something like the Rythmik FV25 or Captivator 4000ULF is an even better value(imo).
BTW, I just noticed you're talking about the 18OE. Where are you seeing CEA-2010 data for that? I see a note on the Funk site saying
"Very similar in overall performance to our 18.0, more information coming soon." But, "Very similar" to me implies close, but not as good, especially considering that it's $1,400 cheaper. I can see your "copy" point more, now, though, given that the JTR RS1 is just $1 cheaper . I still disagree that it's a copy, though .
Has Nathan given any more info than that? Even if just an estimate (ex: 1dB less here, 2dB less here), I can update the comparison above with a "~"(similar to how I've done with the RS2).
Since I couldn't find CEA-2010 data for the 18.0E, I had to use the more expensive 18.0 for comparison, but I'm assuming the 0E is just a little worse.