The quest for my hyper speaker - Very Large room dilemma

[Duke]

I would absolutely consider passive full-range speakers with independently adjustable bass. I have no issues with external equalization.

I would be comfortable putting the front baffle of the speaker as far as 8 ft away from the back wall.

The Timbre of my voice is fine in the room. The decay is somewhat compromised, I have measured the rt60 before and the number escapes me but it was definitely no where as good as my theater. It was not too bad mind you.

Thank you for this additional information. Imo you do not need any "room treatment"; you just need good quality, very-high-SPL-capable speakers whose reflections have the same spectral balance as their direct sound. And imo this is why you want to minimize any spectral discrepancy between the two:

"If the spectra of the direct and reflected sounds are significantly different, the reflections are likely to be more noticeable, from subtle timbral effects up to a premature breakdown of the precedence effect." - Floyd Toole

I have been recommended line arrays a few times and I'm aware of the concept of decreased SPL dropoff. I just have never seen any frequency response or dispersion graphs, or distortion data for that matter pertaining to them.

Some years ago I had a home demo room that was 33 feet (10 meters) long. I'm a dealer for a line-source-approximating speaker (SoundLab faceted-curved fullrange electrostats), so I took pink noise measurements of a point-source-approximating loudspeaker and the SoundLabs at 1 meter and also back at 8 meters (the practical maximum with the SoundLabs set up correctly). From 1 meter to 8 meters, the point-source-approximating speaker's SPL fell off by 11 decibels. Point source theory predicts a 6 decibel falloff for each doubling of distance, not counting the contribution of in-room reflections. That would theoretically have been an 18 decibel falloff (three doublings of distance), so evidently the in-room reflections were making a 7 decibel contribution back at 8 meters.

Line source theory predicts a 3 dB falloff per doubling of distance. So that would be 9 decibels of falloff, not counting the in-room reflections. The line-source-approximating dipolar SoundLabs fell off by only 4 decibels over the same distance, indicating that the in-room reflections were contributing about 5 decibels at 8 meters.

So in my experience, in a suitable room, a good line-source-approximating loudspeaker's output really does fall off more slowly with distance.

Unfortunately I do not think you can expect a line-source-approximating loudspeaker to behave as well in your room because of your tall ceilings. Let me explain:

The floor and ceiling reflections extend the virtual height of a line-source-approximating loudspeaker, effectively trippling the array height according to Sound Lab designer Roger West. But in order for this to happen, the bottom of the line-source-approximating speaker needs to be very close to the floor, and the top needs to be very close to the ceiling. Your ceiling is so tall that, unless you have custom hyper-tall line-source-approximating speakers made, the ceiling will be too far away for its reflection to effectively extend the array in that direction.

Also, most "line array" type loudspeakers have very wide horizontal dispersion and therefore significant sidewall interaction, and in a room the size of yours I think the resulting abundance of early-onset reflections (combined with the direct-to-reverberant ration being reduced by the listening distance anyway) would work against clarity.

So in general I would not recommend a line array loudspeaker system for your room.

 

[Mr. Widget]

When I say not bad I am talking about the frequency response and the RT60. The imaging is no problem in terms of stereo and I agree any standard hifi solution, such as the current one with the f208s, works. The next step in this never ending hobby is something that can provide high spl dynamics, slam and low bass extension (which the f208's can do effortlessly in most rooms if given enough power, but sadly not in mine)

This actually makes me think that the Meyer Sound Ultra X-40 recommendation that @gnarly was suggesting may not be that far off base. In my smaller room I am using the smaller sibling, the Ultra X-20 and they seriously kick ass for such a tiny foot print. To make the X-40s work aesthetically would be a challenge, but they sound great and have essentially no SPL limitation for any domestic application.

Unfortunately I do not think you can expect a line-source-approximating loudspeaker to behave as well in your room because of your tall ceilings. Let me explain:

The floor and ceiling reflections extend the virtual height of a line-source-approximating loudspeaker, effectively trippling the array height according to Sound Lab designer Roger West. But in order for this to happen, the bottom of the line-source-approximating speaker needs to be very close to the floor, and the top needs to be very close to the ceiling. Your ceiling is so tall that, unless you have custom hyper-tall line-source-approximating speakers made, the ceiling will be too far away for its reflection to effectively extend the array in that direction.

Also, most "line array" type loudspeakers have very wide horizontal dispersion and therefore significant sidewall interaction, and in a room the size of yours I think the resulting abundance of early-onset reflections (combined with the direct-to-reverberant ration being reduced by the listening distance) anyway would work against clarity.

So in general I would not recommend a line array loudspeaker system for your room.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. I have owned Sound Labs panels and they have plenty of great attributes and I wouldn't hesitate recommending them in many applications, but they do not have the same pattern control that the Wisdoms or Steinway Lyngdorf line array speakers have. Both of these have better control and vastly superior dynamics that the Sound Labs lack.

 

[JPA]

I believe the gentleman in question, having the ability to afford such a grand room, can probably afford "hyper speakers" ;-) ... My suggestion was just a joke ... though a part of me would be curious to experience that

You may have been joking, but I was not. If I were in his shoes my first move would be to try stacked speakers.

 

[aliqaz]

You may have been joking, but I was not. If I were in his shoes my first move would be to try stacked speakers.

Unfortunately stacking speakers is not an option. They should look at a minimum non-weird and ideally, nice.

 

[GXAlan]

I absolutely agree with your general sentiment. All of my systems are different but adhere to good general objectivist principles. I have wide dispersion, narrow dispersion, near field, multi-channel etc. I would definitely like something with a bit of a different character. To be honest, back in the day my ideal speaker was the blade with its impeccable measurements, the point source, the narrow dispersion and of course the industrial design. However I honestly don't think it could energize a room that size or provide the dynamics I would like.

We always say that higher volume sounds better (which is why we have to level match) and you are going to need a lot of SPL to fill that room.

I do know that the Tannoy Westminster sounds great with classical music. Recall that a real symphony hall sounds nothing like most recordings and audiophile speakers which generate a hyper-real output. But that was a bit tongue in cheek.

The biggest problem you face is that the high SPL products don’t fall into the category of furniture grade. The JBL M2 is your no-brainer option for lots of SPL but it doesn’t look good.

Looking at the photo of your room, this is what you want.
Grand Utopia EM Evo

Look at the performance of the budget Chora 816 here.

Focal Chora 816 Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests and detailed measurements of Focal Chora 816 floor-standing/tower speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $499. Despite the low price, the speaker is beautifully finished with a curved port and beautiful light oak finish: A magnetic grill...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And go for the Grand Utopia EM Evo. That has dynamics!

https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/grande_utopia_em_evo_specification_sheet_gb.pdf

 

[aliqaz]

We always say that higher volume sounds better (which is why we have to level match) and you are going to need a lot of SPL to fill that room.

I do know that the Tannoy Westminster sounds great with classical music. Recall that a real symphony hall sounds nothing like most recordings and audiophile speakers which generate a hyper-real output. But that was a bit tongue in cheek.

The biggest problem you face is that the high SPL products don’t fall into the category of furniture grade. The JBL M2 is your no-brainer option for lots of SPL but it doesn’t look good.

Looking at the photo of your room, this is what you want. Look at the performance of the budget Chora 816 here.

Focal Chora 816 Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests and detailed measurements of Focal Chora 816 floor-standing/tower speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $499. Despite the low price, the speaker is beautifully finished with a curved port and beautiful light oak finish: A magnetic grill...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And go for the Grand Utopia EM Evo. That has dynamics!

https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/grande_utopia_em_evo_specification_sheet_gb.pdf

I have always loved focal. I had a pair of Kantas that you see in the picture and in smaller rooms they were unbelievable. Able to reach low, hit very high spl levels without distortion, and tons of punch and dynamics. Likely accounted for by their high senstivity (91db) and low distortion. Due to their wider dispersion, in smaller rooms they virtually disappeared once room corrected and fed with enough juice. As for the Grande utopia, they would be awesome but I don't think they are doing anything that speakers a quarter of their 130k asking price would (apart from looking fabulous of course) and they might still be borderline.

 

[GXAlan]

I have always loved focal … I don't think they are doing anything that speakers a quarter of their 130k asking price would (apart from looking fabulous of course) and they might still be borderline.

The very interesting thing is how Focal goes against classic Harman science for their tweeter dispersion.

My understanding is that the directivity index is best when the sound power and early reflections are all a slow smooth slope without kinks.

But Focal from its earliest days has insisted on the widest dispersion, which is why they like their inverted dome tweeter. This results in an anomaly where you suddenly get wider dispersion for certain high frequencies. It sure sounds great to my ears though!

The other option, which cannot hit the dynamics you need unless you are powering with mega monoblocks are MBL’s. Those would give you maximum dispersion

I agree that it’s unlikely that the Grande or Stella Utopia are much better than the Scala Utopia… BUT if there was a room where there was a difference, I would bet that it is yours (by virtue of size/listening position).

Still, try to audition the Tannoy Westminster if you get a chance. I was quite surprised (favorably) when I heard it.

 

[Head_Unit]

I'm sorry... This is all navel gazing. We all know that only stacked 4450s will do in this situation. So - lets just cut to the chase.

View attachment 282043

I guess that's OK as a starting point...

 

[Head_Unit]

cone speakers, I'm not convinced that they could give the dynamics necessary

Yeah, it's just physics. High SPL concert systems use horns and horn loading for a reason. As for the 4367, if you cut out the lows to a good sub setup, it might work well, and you already like the sound a lot. I would think a dealer would be willing to let you try a set, since you already have a set. Duh, actually come to think of it, move them over temporarily and try them out

 

[Axo1989]

... The biggest problem you face is that the high SPL products don’t fall into the category of furniture grade. The JBL M2 is your no-brainer option for lots of SPL but it doesn’t look good.

Looking at the photo of your room, this is what you want.
Grand Utopia EM Evo
View attachment 282480

Look at the performance of the budget Chora 816 here.

Focal Chora 816 Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests and detailed measurements of Focal Chora 816 floor-standing/tower speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $499. Despite the low price, the speaker is beautifully finished with a curved port and beautiful light oak finish: A magnetic grill...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And go for the Grand Utopia EM Evo. That has dynamics!

https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/grande_utopia_em_evo_specification_sheet_gb.pdf

That was my first suggestion back at post #89 but I agree it deserves a picture. Would look very nice in that room.

There's a matching sub (that stacks 3-high) in case you need more bass in that space.

 

[Axo1989]

The very interesting thing is how Focal goes against classic Harman science for their tweeter dispersion.

My understanding is that the directivity index is best when the sound power and early reflections are all a slow smooth slope without kinks.

But Focal from its earliest days has insisted on the widest dispersion, which is why they like their inverted dome tweeter. This results in an anomaly where you suddenly get wider dispersion for certain high frequencies. It sure sounds great to my ears though!

View attachment 282491View attachment 282492

The other option, which cannot hit the dynamics you need unless you are powering with mega monoblocks are MBL’s. Those would give you maximum dispersion

Interesting. Those Focal Utopia series sound very good for rock-adjacent genres as well as classical, so I'd take whichever of the series matches my room size without a second thought, given the budget.

But I have noticed I prefer the sound of Audio Physic reference line (like the Codex I actually own) for electronic genres. Their tweeter design is a cone (not a dome) and has narrower-than-usual dispersion. Codex are too small for a great room, the OP would need Cardeas or (per my earlier post) limited-series Medeos.

I agree that it’s unlikely that the Grande or Stella Utopia are much better than the Scala Utopia… BUT if there was a room where there was a difference, I would bet that it is yours (by virtue of size/listening position).

Still, try to audition the Tannoy Westminster if you get a chance. I was quite surprised (favorably) when I heard it.

Personally, I've heard Scala (second series) and Grande Utopia (original EM and later III EM) at length in a normal large (and moderately treated) listening room that was bit too small for the latter. The bigger speaker is better at high (ie realistic for rock-adjacent or symphonic) levels even there (but subject to sighted bias of course). I'd say/agree certainly in the OP's space.

Technically, the Scala's f3/f6 is 27/24 Hz respectively, while the Grande is 18/14 Hz with a lot more surface area. If the latter matches your musical taste (as it does mine) you can hear/feel it.

Re that space, I'll add that I think the timber treatment of the front wall and ceiling looks great (is it diffusion?) as do the timber stairs and timber-lined transition to (what may be) the entry.

 

[Keith_W]

The very interesting thing is how Focal goes against classic Harman science for their tweeter dispersion.

I have never liked Focal because I thought they sounded much too bright. Thanks to your reply, I now know the answer.

 

[Elgrosso]

The room in question.

Gorgeous!
What are your thoughts on changing the direction/placement of the speakers?
Personally I would gladly compromise the sound a bit, to get this beautiful outdoor view in front, adding to the musical experience.
(especially with horns)

 

[dedobot]

Lovely place. I'd go with powerful Dolby Atmos installation from Neumann , Gen, MEG.. with a large speakers for FR FL channels for pure stereo listening. Something like kh420+kh870. An top of the line DAC/processor and I can't dream of more .
P.S.
With a good interior designer and skilled workers the in-wall speakers can looks better than world most famous floorstanders at half of the prise.

 

[Ciobi69]

JBL 4367/M2 with 2 sealed or compact reflex subwoofer you set

 

[Ciobi69]

Lovely place. I'd go with powerful Dolby Atmos installation from Neumann , Gen, MEG.. with a large speakers for FR FL channels for pure stereo listening. Something like kh420+kh870. An top of the line DAC/processor and I can't dream of more .
P.S.
With a good interior designer and skilled workers the in-wall speakers can looks better than world most famous floorstanders at half of the prise.

I don't think the Neumann tweeter could handle it

 

[fpitas]

Yeah, it's just physics. High SPL concert systems use horns and horn loading for a reason. As for the 4367, if you cut out the lows to a good sub setup, it might work well, and you already like the sound a lot. I would think a dealer would be willing to let you try a set, since you already have a set. Duh, actually come to think of it, move them over temporarily and try them out

I agree they would work ok. I think the 120 degree horn of the DD67000 might be more appropriate, though. And the extra baffle step woofer can't hurt.

 

[Mart68]

I have never liked Focal because I thought they sounded much too bright. Thanks to your reply, I now know the answer.

This cannot be the reason since I have Focals with inverted tweeter and they don't sound too bright.

There are other reasons i,e the load they present to the amplifier.

I'm grateful to the myth though since it meant I was able to buy mine for very little money

As the OP says in suitable set up they disappear. Lots of people have heard them with various comments, no-one ever said 'Too bright'.

I was going to suggest Grand Utopia to the o/p - I didn't realise how high the price had gone!

 

[eddantes]

but seriously - room that big - is a pair of speakers the best way to solve the problem, when there are so many excellent high tech, multi-speaker, solutions?

 

[fpitas]

but seriously - room that big - is a pair of speakers the best way to solve the problem, when there are so many excellent high tech, multi-speaker, solutions?

Those come with their own rather complex problems. Several of the speakers mentioned here will easily fill that space with good sound.