The quest for my hyper speaker - Very Large room dilemma

[sweetsounds]

The room in question.

Amazing interior design, you need something stylish to match and you seem to have the funds.

The Aries Cerat Aurora etc. look great, have >100dB sensitivity but their sound is unnaturally exaggerated and not flat.
Kef Blades are also nice, but their lateral dispersion sounded uneven.
Alsyvox Caravaggio at 91dB are quite good and would get rid of lateral reflections, but electrostats interact with the backwall.


Estelons then.

 

[gnarly]

I think there might be one crucial difference in what we are looking for (correct me if I am wrong). The size of the room (approx 35000 cubic feet) and how far I am sitting (I measured, it's just over 20 ft). I find most modern speakers perfectly dynamic in smaller rooms, and a smaller number of speakers perfectly dynamic in medium to large rooms. If my bloody room was smaller, I would be happy with any number of modern well-designed speakers, haha. I think endgame is relative to how far you sit and how big the room is that needs to be energized.

Yes, I think that to be correct, from having built a larger than normal room myself.
Not as big as yours, but about 25 ft wide, by 40ft long, with average 12 ft height...so about 1/3rd the volume of yours.

Hearing you want to replicate the impact of your JBL 4349s in your great room, I think you need to look at prosound offerings for a room that size.

Especially if value driven. I haven't seen any offering in the home audio world up to the task of that size room, that isn't some kind of one-off showpiece, or similar type flagship.
No economies of scale, and the purchaser pays dearly. Plus, high SPL with powerful low bass extension in a large room, isn't really home audio's forte. Not at all, imho.

For a room that size, I think speakers that are used in small performance venues, broadway theatres, even symphony halls for vocal reinforcement or acoustic room sculpting, are the ticket.
The market is competitive, economies of scale exist, and their price reflects pure performance, rather than aesthetics.
Sound quality and pattern control rule.
EASE data with full polar information, and room modeling softwares are available,... along with normally free manufacturer consolations for 'best fit' product recommendations.
Biggest negative (only negative imo) might be an overly industrial look.

A few US companies I can quickly recommend are Meyer, Danley, and Fulcrum Acoustics. I'm sure JBL fits in that group too, I'm just not as familiar with their commercial product lines. And there's no doubt a host of fine international offerings, like RCF which is fairly available in the states.

For my room, after realizing it was too big for anything coming out of home audio (that i would pay for based of reputation alone), I bought some big Meyer 4-ways, that were self-powered and an easy foray for beginner into proaudio. I saw the House of Blues chain had them in a couple of locations as their main speakers.

They sounded glorious (even embarrassingly close to the electrostatics I had held aloof, that i kept running a small room),
and lord knows the dynamics, bass, and SPL..
I paid about $12,000 for the pair in 2001, and now view them as an absolute bargain. 4 channels of amplification, built in processing with limiting, etc.
Stuff has of course gone up almost exponentially since then....




Flew them upside down from the ceiling, to assure half-space loading of the sub section. But after about a year, despite them having both a 18" and 15", I noticed the bass couldn't keep up with the mids and compression driver, when wanting to take them for a thrill ride.
So I added a Meyer double 18" sub that flew between them, and that balanced out 'time to crank'.

I suspect you will find this too, a need for more sub that expected.
I think manufacturers' room modeling could really help anticipate your needs.

If you want to just play with live-sound boxes on the relative cheap...I'd suggest something like the Yamaha DZR line for mains, and XLF line for subs. And there's a fairly liquid resell market for these, given their price vs performance..

If you went for a kick ass stereo setup from any of the three US guys i listed earlier, my guess is you're looking at about $25-35 grand for something guaranteed to please.
That's with live sound boxes like Meyer's X40. Their top of line blue horn, made for studio, is probably at least double that.... dunno, that's past where i can see value...

Hope this helped...

 

[RayDunzl]

the picture is confusing at first as there’s another set of speakers in the room. The RTJ-410 units are sandwiched between the rtj18 subs above and below them.

I immediately thought this fellow might be a tele-video purist, still demanding a 4x3 aspect ratio.

Only watches kinescope, of course, but wants the full audio impact of Milton Berle..

 

[MKR]

I think there might be one crucial difference in what we are looking for (correct me if I am wrong). The size of the room (approx 35000 cubic feet) and how far I am sitting (I measured, it's just over 20 ft). I find most modern speakers perfectly dynamic in smaller rooms, and a smaller number of speakers perfectly dynamic in medium to large rooms. If my bloody room was smaller, I would be happy with any number of modern well-designed speakers, haha. I think endgame is relative to how far you sit and how big the room is that needs to be energized.

I meant the characteristics of the speakers we are looking for are similar. As to your “room”, that’s not a room, that’s a concert hall

 

[FrankW]

Here one such paper, by Todd Welti and Alan Devantier presented to the AES...
Low-Frequency Optimization Using Multiple Subwoofers*

That paper had zero listening tests. It's a simulation of how to make a microphone happy for home theater multi seating and its a well worn audio forum canard, but unfortunately few who cite it have read it. No perception involved.
You cited both Geddes and Toole, both of whom rely on the results of double blind listening tests.
If you have any to support your views on subs being a necessity, please do so. The OP stated his preference against, so a convincing argument otherwise would need some evidence other than "I and others like it". Thanks.

 

[FrankW]

The room in question.

Nice, though when did Focals get involved ;-).
I think you need a bigger boat...err, speakers

 

[Adi777]

I have a Great room which is very large. About 25 ft width, 60 ft length, and a ceiling height that varies from 18 ft to 30 ft.

Sweet Lord Nice

 

[FrankW]

I immediately thought this fellow might be a tele-video purist, still demanding a 4x3 aspect ratio.

Only watches kinescope, of course, but wants the full audio impact of Milton Berle..

I see what you did there Ray

 

[Adi777]

@aliqaz
When I read the size of your room, I automatically thought of these speakers, but unfortunately for visual reasons

My level of horny on Lenard Audio is increasing

 

[FrantzM]

That paper had zero listening tests. It's a simulation of how to make a microphone happy for home theater multi seating and its a well worn audio forum canard, but unfortunately few who cite it have read it. No perception involved.
You cited both Geddes and Toole, both of whom rely on the results of double blind listening tests.
If you have any to support your views on subs being a necessity, please do so. The OP stated his preference against, so a convincing argument otherwise would need some evidence other than "I and others like it". Thanks.

Ok...

Peace.

 

[MKR]

@aliqaz
When I read the size of your room, I automatically thought of these speakers, but unfortunately for visual reasons

My level of horny on Lenard Audio is increasing

I gotta say these definitely look interesting …

Lenard Audio | Opal Systems

Lenard Audio, creators of Hi Fidelity, 4 way active cross-over sound systems.

lenardaudio.com

 

[Duke]

Unfortunately it's a living room environment so no acoustic treatment is possible. Hence the desire for narrow and controlled directivity if possible.

I agree completely with your analysis.

I would prefer full range towers with the crossovers and delays already set by the manufacturer... The ideal would be full range towers though, we are looking for a hyperspeaker after all

Would you consider fullrange passive speakers, with the response adjusted (primarily in the bass region) by external equalization?

The room in question.

Wow, what an incredible room! I can see why you want hyperspeakers that don't need subs. Normally I'm an advocate for distributed multi-sub systems (and manufacturer of one such, called the "Swarm"), BUT the benefits of having multiple distributed subs decreases as the room size increases. High modal density is desirable, as it results in inherently good in-room bass smoothness (and smooth bass = "fast" bass), and the larger the room the greater the modal density in the bass region. In fact the distributed multisub approach is arguably a technique for approximating the in-room bass smoothness of a large room, but in a smaller room.

In other words, if your hyperspeakers have sufficient bass output that you don't need subs, then I think your room size definitely works in your favor. But moving sufficient air for good fullrange dynamics in that size room is going to be a challenge; imo not many "off the shelf" speakers can do it. Some years ago I designed a custom loudspeaker system for a room about half the size of yours. I used some really nice horns + two 12" midbasses per side + big subwoofers (his room's aesthetic was more subwoofer-friendly).

How far out from the "front" wall are you comfortable positioning your future hyperspeakers, assuming they look good?

When you talk out loud in the room and close your eyes and just focus on the timbre and decay of your voice, how does it sound to you? (Not that this is the most scientific of room analyses, but imo it can be useful. You can try this in other rooms to get a feel for how different rooms sound... but maybe wait until nobody else is home because it looks pretty weird.)

 

[Pearljam5000]

 

[MKR]

Not much info available on these yet, but if you like planars …

Clarisys Audio - Stadium

Concert in your living room

www.clarisysaudio.ch

 

[woofersus]

I have owned the Everests myself. I originally bought the DD66000s and then upgraded to the DD67000s. If your room has moderate damping and you add some subwoofers, I am sure your goals will be met. If the room is a highly reverberant glass box, no speaker will work anyway.

The bass from the DD67000s is quite good, but is nonexistent below about 40Hz so even with four 15" woofers subs are good idea. I used mine both with and without subs. If I were going to return to the Everests, subs would definitely be part of the plan.

FWIW: There are times when I miss those speakers!

I'm surprised at your experience with them. They're rated at 45hz anechoic, but 29hz in half space. Admittedly I've never heard them in my own home but I've heard them a half dozen times and never felt cheated on the low end. Of course that wasn't music with ultra-low bass in it like pipe organs or electronica. I guess this may be very room dependent?

My budget doesn't range that high and I don't have that kind of space either, but they're definitely on my short list of all-time favorites.

 

[aliqaz]

Hi @aliqaz

Few things. You may have the solution . You seem to like the Harman spekaers. You had the Revel F208, currently have the JBL4349... You do not seem to be adverse to subwoofers, you actually have the "room" for these... To quote you:

I view subwoofers are necessary in any system, regardless of the intrinsic low frequency capabilities of the mains. I am not sure, either that @amirm has qualified the Revel Salon 2 dynamics as "subdued". I could be wrong...
My humble suggestions:
4 Subwoofers with serious output. I personally have come to prefer ported subwoofers, so 4 x SVS-PB-4000. You would not lose much if you were to go sealed, SB-4000:
JBL 4367 or Revel Salon 2 (I, would go for the Salon 2).
miniDSP 2x4 HD to integrate the subwoofers.

A few weeks to tinker, measure, re-measure, re-tinker...

You could be in heaven with those.

Peace

That is definitely the last case scenario if I'm unable to figure something out. Use my 4349s and add multiple, likely 4 subs. I would then use something like dlbc to integrate them.

 

[aliqaz]

Not much info available on these yet, but if you like planars …

Clarisys Audio - Stadium

Concert in your living room

www.clarisysaudio.ch

Thank you so much again for the suggestions. I'd like to stick to conventional cones or horns if possible. I've never seen objective measurements of planars that are all that good both in terms of frequency response as well as dispersion.

 

[aliqaz]

@aliqaz
When I read the size of your room, I automatically thought of these speakers, but unfortunately for visual reasons

My level of horny on Lenard Audio is increasing

Yes, absolutely. Aesthetics are quite important. They don't have to be objects of Art themselves, but they should at least be somewhat visually pleasing and integrated into the room.

 

[aliqaz]

Nice, though when did Focals get involved ;-).
I think you need a bigger boat...err, speakers

The focal speakers are from back in the day, when I was tinkering with various kinds in that room after the house was built. They have since moved on to Greener pastures.

 

[aliqaz]

Yes, I think that to be correct, from having built a larger than normal room myself.
Not as big as yours, but about 25 ft wide, by 40ft long, with average 12 ft height...so about 1/3rd the volume of yours.

Hearing you want to replicate the impact of your JBL 4349s in your great room, I think you need to look at prosound offerings for a room that size.

Especially if value driven. I haven't seen any offering in the home audio world up to the task of that size room, that isn't some kind of one-off showpiece, or similar type flagship.
No economies of scale, and the purchaser pays dearly. Plus, high SPL with powerful low bass extension in a large room, isn't really home audio's forte. Not at all, imho.

For a room that size, I think speakers that are used in small performance venues, broadway theatres, even symphony halls for vocal reinforcement or acoustic room sculpting, are the ticket.
The market is competitive, economies of scale exist, and their price reflects pure performance, rather than aesthetics.
Sound quality and pattern control rule.
EASE data with full polar information, and room modeling softwares are available,... along with normally free manufacturer consolations for 'best fit' product recommendations.
Biggest negative (only negative imo) might be an overly industrial look.

A few US companies I can quickly recommend are Meyer, Danley, and Fulcrum Acoustics. I'm sure JBL fits in that group too, I'm just not as familiar with their commercial product lines. And there's no doubt a host of fine international offerings, like RCF which is fairly available in the states.

For my room, after realizing it was too big for anything coming out of home audio (that i would pay for based of reputation alone), I bought some big Meyer 4-ways, that were self-powered and an easy foray for beginner into proaudio. I saw the House of Blues chain had them in a couple of locations as their main speakers.

They sounded glorious (even embarrassingly close to the electrostatics I had held aloof, that i kept running a small room),
and lord knows the dynamics, bass, and SPL..
I paid about $12,000 for the pair in 2001, and now view them as an absolute bargain. 4 channels of amplification, built in processing with limiting, etc.
Stuff has of course gone up almost exponentially since then....

View attachment 282298View attachment 282303


Flew them upside down from the ceiling, to assure half-space loading of the sub section. But after about a year, despite them having both a 18" and 15", I noticed the bass couldn't keep up with the mids and compression driver, when wanting to take them for a thrill ride.
So I added a Meyer double 18" sub that flew between them, and that balanced out 'time to crank'.

I suspect you will find this too, a need for more sub that expected.
I think manufacturers' room modeling could really help anticipate your needs.

If you want to just play with live-sound boxes on the relative cheap...I'd suggest something like the Yamaha DZR line for mains, and XLF line for subs. And there's a fairly liquid resell market for these, given their price vs performance..

If you went for a kick ass stereo setup from any of the three US guys i listed earlier, my guess is you're looking at about $25-35 grand for something guaranteed to please.
That's with live sound boxes like Meyer's X40. Their top of line blue horn, made for studio, is probably at least double that.... dunno, that's past where i can see value...

Hope this helped...

This is an incredibly helpful and educational post. And I will definitely be looking into this. The problem is obviously aesthetics. This is a nice room and most of the pro sound speakers will stick out like a sore thumb. As much as I am truly value-oriented, The cost savings will simply not be worth it unfortunately.