Trinnov Altitude 16 Review (AV Processor)

[Adi777]

7.5.6 -> 9.5.6 -if you have space, then why not.

Yes, space. You have 32m2, me only 24m2, it's big different

 

[Fidji]

Yes, space. You have 32m2, me only 24m2, it's big different

If you have 4x6 room - unless you have door where 9.x.x should be it should be OK. Usually is much tougher to place 7.x.x properly behind and around you. My room is just bit longer (6.2m) than yours. X.6.x should also not be an issue.

 

[Adi777]

unless you have door where 9.x.x should be it

I guess it is, but I'm not sure.

 

[RichB]

This is surprising and something that should be able to be verified by measurements with REW. Have you confirmed this with measurements?

No this is in a vacation home that I was visiting to upgrade the TV.
I can try that sometime, but honestly, it is captain obvious when you switch a 2.0 source from Direct (two speakers) to Dolby Surround on the 3700 and all sibilants and male vocal bass are gone!

These processors are not measured with DSP engaged annd not measured with their upmixers.
It's my subjective observation that the RMC-1 Dolby Surround 2.0 upmixer is excellent, the center channel sounds as good as it does on the 5.1 source.
This was not true for the Marantz 8801, the Denon 3700, and the Emotiva XMC-1.

Originally, I thought this was due to improvements in the Dolby upmixer but there seems to be more to it than that.
The 3700 Dolby upmixer is not worth using, yuck.

I am not saying that the Trinnov is a good value, just that there are performance differences and features that are simply not measured by SINAD.
I don't know how well the upmixer works on the Trinnov either and I'd hate to buy one only to be disappointed.
I would not buy a Marantz 8805 without hearing its upmixer just in case.

I agree that these multi-thousand-dollar processors should perform far better on SINAD they cost this much and also to have additional headroom for DSP processing.

- Rich

 

[Fidji]

I guess it is, but I'm not sure.

No idea about your gear - but I would say with Trinnov and 7.2.4, from channel count perspective and immersion, you should be ok. I would really consider adding 2 subs, this would be the biggest upgrade.

Another way to go is to upgrade e.g. center speaker - it was not listed in my upgrade path, but probably one of the most notable upgrades I have made. It is true, what they say, every HT is as good as it’s Center.

 

[sarumbear]

It seems that no one commenting in this thread has paid list price for their Trinnov units.

How do you know that? Have you asked me? You assume everything. You seem to have no knowledge on the subject. But for some reason you are still talking about it.

 

[GalZohar]

To counter this I would just point out that type and placement of screen could be a very valid reason for wanting to use the speaker remapping function. For instance, someone may be limited due to their residential location (expensive inner city location with no option to extend) and only have a single room for TV/ Films etc. So they may not want to use a projector onto a sonically transparent screen. Hence they go with an eleventy-five inch OLED or similar, but don't want to have the screen above the height of their floorstanders ( I don't particularly like looking upwards at a TV). So they have to use a typical centre speaker below the screen, and thus want to use the remapping function.

I still wonder how effective remapping would be for this use case. Taking sound out of your beefy center speaker and moving it to small ceiling speakers to "elevate" the sound to screen level doesn't sound like a good idea. Your imaging between the center and heights will have to be top notch (which I think is between unlikely to impossible), on top of the fact the heights probably aren't nearly as capable as your center. Plus it will only image correctly for the MLP, beating the whole point of the center speaker for off-axis listeners. To me it seems like (given no acoustically transparent screen) you either need to live with a low center or phantom center, and no remapping could change that. At least until proven otherwise...

 

[Mr. Widget]

Not sure where all the defensiveness is coming from.

It seems that no one commenting in this thread has paid list price for their Trinnov units. I think that speaks volumes as to their perceived value at $17,000, or lack thereof.

I’ll be blunt. I make a $#!+ ton of money compared to most people. If *I* don’t see the value in a Trinnov unit, then it’s not about the absolute price. It’s about the utility. There simply isn’t $17,000 worth of utility there. As far as $40,000? Forget it. Like I said earlier, you could hire a live-in AV tech for that amount of cash.

In my day job I design home theaters and select the brand and model based on each project's specific requirements. Most of my clients make ($#!+)²

The equipment we specify almost always lives in a conditioned rack out of sight and out of mind. As long as the final results work as promised that is the end of the conversation. The client typically doesn't care if we specified a Trinnov or a Denon. For the most part they are not enthusiasts and really don't care as long as their home theater puts a big grin on their faces when the lights come down and the action begins.

I think the Trinnov processors are definitely as the Brits might say, "a very good piece of kit". They certainly are not for everyone or every application, but if you are doing a good sized room with multiple subwoofers and need 20 channels this processor is a good choice, the Storm Audio ISP Core 16, or the Lyngdorf MP60 2.1 are also excellent choices if 16 channels will do. I often choose the Lyngdorf because it is simplest to deploy and sounds great. But depending on a variety of case specific factors, the Storm Audio or Trinnov may make more sense and if you need more channels than 16, both Storm and Trinnov offer processors capable of over 20 channels.

I don't know what the measured THD+N figure is for any of these, but they all appear to be well below audibility. (As an aside, in my opinion sound quality is less important in a video system than in a dedicated 2 channel system because the addition of video information distracts our brains and we are slightly less discerning and/or more forgiving. I am not suggesting that a $2K AVR will compare to one of these high end processors, but the subtle differences between the three I mentioned are beyond the abilities of most if not all listeners to recognize.)

On a parallel topic, HDMI switching is a bear. In my experience HDMI design changes are particularly difficult for all of these boutique brands to keep up with. If you are considering spending this kind of money, do yourself a favor and let a company who specializes in handling HDMI take care of your HDMI needs. There are numerous choices of dedicated HDMI switchers that will send up to an 8K HDMI feed to your display or projector and send an HDMI feed to the pre/pro at the most ideal resolution.

 

[GXAlan]

To counter this I would just point out that type and placement of screen could be a very valid reason for wanting to use the speaker remapping function. …Hence they go with an eleventy-five inch OLED .

Agreed. OLED will always have better contrast ratio

I still wonder how effective remapping would be for this use case. Taking sound out of your beefy center speaker and moving it to small ceiling speakers to "elevate" the sound to screen level doesn't sound like a good idea.

Agreed. You need front *heights* not in-ceiling speakers for center lift to work. Floyd Toole uses Performa 3 speakers for his Auro layer. He doesn’t need any center lift, but I do use that example as a setup with premium speakers in the front height.

I personally use my JBL 4319 as my front heights which have 12” woofers to support my JBL S1500C. The 4319 doesn’t have a great spinorama at all, though it has low distortion, and yet it works really well as a center lift.

That is also the argument against the center lift because the vertical spin is inconsistent and the basic center lift in Sony AVRs and presumably Yamaha AVRs is mostly a volume based mixing strategy. It’s super cool to play with the center lift since it’s real-time.

 

[Fidji]

I still wonder how effective remapping would be for this use case. Taking sound out of your beefy center speaker and moving it to small ceiling speakers to "elevate" the sound to screen level doesn't sound like a good idea. Your imaging between the center and heights will have to be top notch (which I think is between unlikely to impossible), on top of the fact the heights probably aren't nearly as capable as your center. Plus it will only image correctly for the MLP, beating the whole point of the center speaker for off-axis listeners. To me it seems like (given no acoustically transparent screen) you either need to live with a low center or phantom center, and no remapping could change that. At least until proven otherwise...

Appropriate Center Hejght speaker placed above the screen will do the trick. Also correct placement of the screen/TV is a big help. You can see screens just being placed too high much too often. You can always tilt the center up to get vertical performance right, which also helps a lot.

 

[Unground]

In my day job I design home theaters and select the brand and model based on each project's specific requirements. Most of my clients make ($#!+)²

The equipment we specify almost always lives in a conditioned rack out of sight and out of mind. As long as the final results work as promised that is the end of the conversation. The client typically doesn't care if we specified a Trinnov or a Denon. For the most part they are not enthusiasts and really don't care as long as their home theater puts a big grin on their faces when the lights come down and the action begins.

I think the Trinnov processors are definitely as the Brits might say, "a very good piece of kit". They certainly are not for everyone or every application, but if you are doing a good sized room with multiple subwoofers and need 20 channels this processor is a good choice, the Storm Audio ISP Core 16, or the Lyngdorf MP60 2.1 are also excellent choices if 16 channels will do. I often choose the Lyngdorf because it is simplest to deploy and sounds great. But depending on a variety of case specific factors, the Storm Audio or Trinnov may make more sense and if you need more channels than 16, both Storm and Trinnov offer processors capable of over 20 channels.

I don't know what the measured THD+N figure is for any of these, but they all appear to be well below audibility. (As an aside, in my opinion sound quality is less important in a video system than in a dedicated 2 channel system because the addition of video information distracts our brains and we are slightly less discerning and/or more forgiving. I am not suggesting that a $2K AVR will compare to one of these high end processors, but the subtle differences between the three I mentioned are beyond the abilities of most if not all listeners to recognize.)

On a parallel topic, HDMI switching is a bear. In my experience HDMI design changes are particularly difficult for all of these boutique brands to keep up with. If you are considering spending this kind of money, do yourself a favor and let a company who specializes in handling HDMI take care of your HDMI needs. There are numerous choices of dedicated HDMI switchers that will send up to an 8K HDMI feed to your display or projector and send an HDMI feed to the pre/pro at the most ideal resolution.

Now THIS is a useful post to me as a potential buyer. Thanks @Mr. Widget for actual experience.

My income is far from $#!+ , I don't have a dedicated room and my lounge is a non-ideal shape and not large. So hearing a practitioner's experience of the relative difference (or otherwise) of higher-end processors is important. This is much more relevant to me than fantasy armchair RRP-setting...

Last time I looked, the list prices of Lyngdorf and Trinnov in the UK weren't that different, so the software-based nature and support might be enough to justify the Trinnov price premium to me. But maybe not. I need to compare and now I have more useful information based on actual experience to guide me.

Clever point about the HDMI switchers too. Although I don't want yet another remote, I gather switchers are not expensive (?) and it is an area that can easily drive one nuts.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Now THIS is a useful post to me as a potential buyer. Thanks @Mr. Widget for actual experience.

My income is far from $#!+ , I don't have a dedicated room and my lounge is a non-ideal shape and not large. So hearing a practitioner's experience of the relative difference (or otherwise) of higher-end processors is important. This is much more relevant to me than fantasy armchair RRP-setting...

Last time I looked, the list prices of Lyngdorf and Trinnov in the UK weren't that different, so the software-based nature and support might be enough to justify the Trinnov price premium to me. But maybe not. I need to compare and now I have more useful information based on actual experience to guide me.

Clever point about the HDMI switchers too. Although I don't want yet another remote, I gather switchers are not expensive (?) and it is an area that can easily drive one nuts.

My income is far from $#!+ also.

In my combo home office and media room I don't need that many channels so I am using the Lyngdorf MP40 which supports up to 12 channels and is much less costly. The MP40 is also limited to only three HDMI inputs and the HDMI board is not up to the 2.1 spec either. Another limitation of both Lyngdorf's is that there is no analog input. None of these limitations were deal breakers for me though. I just bought a miniDSP Flex to use as an affordable A to D. (I wanted to add this capability for inputting analog test tones.)

For a less than ideal room, the better room correction you can implement the better... if you can also get creative with elements of decor in the room, that can go a long way towards improving the sound. All three processors that I was mentioning have the power to help massage a room... within reason. FWIW: I have also used Anthem ARC, and most flavors of Audessey, as well as the JBL Synthesis ARCOS system. Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect is by far the simplest to get consistently great results. This combined with the initial manual EQ massaging and post Room Perfect "Voicing" that you can add, it is a very flexible system.

I am using powered speakers in my room and enjoy the system as a secondary 2 channel system as well as my home theater with projector and pull down screen. I never found any of the Marantz, Denon, Sony, or Yamaha AVRs or processors to sound good enough in 2 channel for me to really be satisfied. (Just one person's opinion... I know plenty of folks who seem quite content with one of these processors or AVRs especially with outboard amplification.)

Regarding a second remote, look at Logitech or one of the other universal remotes to simplify control. We deliver our systems with Savant or Crestron for control, but these both have steep programmer learning curves and the hardware is not inexpensive.

 

[Adi777]

No idea about your gear

I have a pair of JBL M2 for now, later I want to buy a third M2 for the center channel and possibly a JBL 708p or 705p for the side and rear channel. JBL Synthesis SCL-8 or SCL-5 on the ceiling.

 

[BDWoody]

Like I said earlier, you could hire a live-in AV tech for that amount of cash.

What are they going to do, sing for you? What has that got to do with anything?

 

[Fidji]

I have a pair of JBL M2 for now, later I want to buy a third M2 for the center channel and possibly a JBL 708p or 705p for the side and rear channel. JBL Synthesis SCL-8 or SCL-5 on the ceiling.

with 3 JBL M2s up front in 24sqm - you do not need 9.x.x . Wow - 3xM2 and 4x 708p with some nice subs to round it up - this will be something else.

 

[GXAlan]

What are they going to do, sing for you? What has that got to do with anything?

They could run around the room for you adding realistic immersive experiences like spritzing you with water in an ocean scene or turning on a fan to blow wind in your hair during an outdoor scene.

I never found any of the Marantz, Denon, Sony, or Yamaha AVRs or processors to sound good enough in 2 channel for me to really be satisfied. (Just one person's opinion... I know plenty of folks who seem quite content with one of these processors or AVRs especially with outboard amplification.)

The SINAD on the AVR-X8500H Denon processor is pretty good and I have been able to eke out 97.6 dB SINAD from an CX-A5100 under optimal conditions (HDMI in at -10 dB)

I think you are probably seeing the difference that room correction is making between higher end products versus the lower end gear. The other possibility is that at the lower output voltages of normal listening, noise is a limiting factor and the higher end stuff often does better with lower noise and channel separation.

Have you ever installed McIntosh home theater gear? They have RoomPerfect options. For their D&M based products, they have different analog circuitry from the D+M product, but I don’t know if their Lyngdorf products are different or not

 

[BDWoody]

They could run around the room for you adding realistic immersive experiences like spritzing you with water in an ocean scene or turning on a fan to blow wind in your hair during an outdoor scene.

I already have a girlfriend for that...

 

[Adi777]

What are they going to do, sing for you?

I thought the same thing

you do not need 9.x.x

Why? I don't know if it makes sense - I would like to be wrapped up in surround sound as much as possible.
Surrounded by sound to the maximum extent
Not only side and rear - my fault, because that would be only 5.X.X
I am also thinking about the distance from the LCR. First of all - I have to correlate it with the distance from the screen, but now the question - from what distance the 3X JBL M2 will sound best?

 

[Fidji]

I thought the same thing

Why? I don't know if it makes sense - I would like to be wrapped up in surround sound as much as possible.
Surrounded by sound to the maximum extent
Not only side and rear - my fault, because that would be only 5.X.X
I am also thinking about the distance from the LCR. First of all - I have to correlate it with the distance from the screen, but now the question - from what distance the 3X JBL M2 will sound best?

Anyway most of the sound is happening screen side - so once you have really ultimate L-C-R [which I would say 3x M2 are] your immersion is very defined by the sheer quality of your front speakers. Add appropriate S&SB, that you can crossover at 60Hz and you are good to go. On top TRINNOV is making very good job on creating this bubble, much better than e.g. Denon with its 3dB more SINAD.

E.g. I have in my secondary setup 3x KH420&750DSP as LCR and I am absolutely happy with 7.4.4. setup [ S&SB are 4x KH310]. My 9.5.6 is buildup from Stereo [similar to yours] based on big Martin Logan electrostats [also C and SB are electrostats] and L-R being positionally optimized for Stereo. As you could see adding 9.x.x was the last step I have done - also 7.5.6 was very good and immersive.

You want to have L-C-R matched perfectly, add good Bass with couple of Subs, rest is then a bit more forgiving.

 

[Dj7675]

No this is in a vacation home that I was visiting to upgrade the TV.
I can try that sometime, but honestly, it is captain obvious when you switch a 2.0 source from Direct (two speakers) to Dolby Surround on the 3700 and all sibilants and male vocal bass are gone!

These processors are not measured with DSP engaged annd not measured with their upmixers.
It's my subjective observation that the RMC-1 Dolby Surround 2.0 upmixer is excellent, the center channel sounds as good as it does on the 5.1 source.
This was not true for the Marantz 8801, the Denon 3700, and the Emotiva XMC-1.

Originally, I thought this was due to improvements in the Dolby upmixer but there seems to be more to it than that.
The 3700 Dolby upmixer is not worth using, yuck.

This would seem to be fairly simple to prove doing a frequency response sweep with DSU on/off without EQ engaged on one of the surrounds to see if DSU is different on each system. I don’t have a Denon around otherwise I would test. Anyone game to test DSU frequency response on a surround with/without DSU engaged?