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Trinnov Altitude 16 Review (AV Processor)

RichB

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This would seem to be fairly simple to prove doing a frequency response sweep with DSU on/off without EQ engaged on one of the surrounds to see if DSU is different on each system. I don’t have a Denon around otherwise I would test. Anyone game to test DSU frequency response on a surround with/without DSU engaged?
It is worth doing, but the processing algorithms may not be easily exposed.

- Rich
 

Dj7675

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It is worth doing, but the processing algorithms may not be easily exposed.

- Rich
But if it can be easily heard it should be able to be easily measured though it would seem.
 

Fidji

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But if it can be easily heard it should be able to be easily measured though it would seem.
not 100% you can do it at all [but I have no Denon anymore, so you might have more luck on Audyssey forum, than Trinnov] For sure you can do Audyssey on/off. Not quite sure, how you can measure upmixers [as REW is limited to 7.1 bed plane].

But I can attest that Dolby is horrible, only one that works a bit is Auro3D [it introduces house curve], overall upmixers are quite bad on D&M
 

Dj7675

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not 100% you can do it at all [but I have no Denon anymore, so you might have more luck on Audyssey forum, than Trinnov] For sure you can do Audyssey on/off. Not quite sure, how you can measure upmixers [as REW is limited to 7.1 bed plane].

But I can attest that Dolby is horrible, only one that works a bit is Auro3D [it introduces house curve], overall upmixers are quite bad on D&M
Upmixing via DSU for 2.0 content can be measured in REW via the surround channels. Measuring the atmos channels would be more challenging (but possible with external atmos test tones). But measurement of a surround would be quite easy.
 

RichB

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But if it can be easily heard it should be able to be easily measured though it would seem.
Let us know what you find.

Starting an investigation with observation in not against science. Ending one with a single measurement is not the pinnacle either.

I promise you anyone could hear the loss of fidelity incurred by engage the Dolby upmixer on the 3700 from direct mode. It certainly can be measured by the right one. If You wish to continue this discussion, I suggest it belongs on a different thread.

- Rich
 

Mr. Widget

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The SINAD on the AVR-X8500H Denon processor is pretty good and I have been able to eke out 97.6 dB SINAD from an CX-A5100 under optimal conditions (HDMI in at -10 dB)
View attachment 237319

I think you are probably seeing the difference that room correction is making between higher end products versus the lower end gear. The other possibility is that at the lower output voltages of normal listening, noise is a limiting factor and the higher end stuff often does better with lower noise and channel separation.

Have you ever installed McIntosh home theater gear? They have RoomPerfect options. For their D&M based products, they have different analog circuitry from the D+M product, but I don’t know if their Lyngdorf products are different or not
First, I have no experience with the Denon AVR-X8500H. I was expressing my opinion which I readily admit can be tainted by bias and all of the other downsides of subjective listening, but it also has the benefit of decades of experience with dozens of previous models from Denon, Marantz, Onkyo/Integra, Yamaha etc. I have deployed and heard these devices in rooms of every description. (Million dollar plus dedicated listening rooms to glass box modernist masterpiece living rooms to your average family room with couches, bookcases, and a large screen TV.)

My understanding is that the SINAD numbers are primarily useful in understanding the underlying caliber of the engineering of a product and not necessarily a numerical standard by which we can judge audible sonic performance. I am sure there are thresholds where different listeners will begin to hear the "grunge" enter into the playback, but this will vary from listener to listener. I have heard surprisingly good audible performance from relatively inexpensive equipment and pretty awful sound from very expensive gear. Usually the simpler the gear the better, but with something like an AVR or pre/pro, simple is not an option. Many of these devices have a "pure audio" or "direct" mode that is supposed to satisfy the audiophile desire for simplicity, but in my experience I have been disappointed by these as well.

In my comments about 2 channel listenability I am not talking about post processed room correction. I always listen to the system at first without any correction. On many occasions, I have found Audyssey and Yamaha's YPAO made changes to the system's sound that was NOT an improvement. I have also heard rather meager systems sound way better than they had a right to after using these schemes. Trust your ears!

Therefore, as a baseline I always try to make the best possible choices for speaker placement, use a device like the Cricket to verify polarity, set the balance with simple measurements, and then listen to known musical sources and pink noise to get a feeling for the room and system. Next comes the room correction and if it sounds good we are done, if not a deeper dive will be taken and solutions will be found on a case by case basis.

The only McIntosh gear I have experience with did not have RoomPerfect. I'm curious about that too.
 

peng

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Trinnov is not about value, is about getting the best, that is out there. Simple as that. You know - Patek Philippe kind of purchase.
In that case, do you know if they can play DSD files up to DSD512/22.6 MHz and DXD352.8 kHz that many inexpensive external DAC/universally player can? It's not about sound quality I worry about but playability. I cannot find any information on which DAC chip they use but If Trinnov is about getting the best, it would be nice if they can play such "high resolution" files, even if just for 2 channel contents. The much cheaper Yamaha (I believe Anthem and Arcam too) can play DSD256, Marantz only DSD128 and PCM 24b/192 kHz.
 

GXAlan

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… but it also has the benefit of decades of experience with dozens of previous models from Denon, Marantz, Onkyo/Integra, Yamaha etc.
Understood. Agree with that sentiment overall. There was a window of time where Denon had very premium products (20 years ago, AVR-5700 generation) and then a long period of lost generation, but you can see from the X3500->X3700 the big leaps in improvements.

My understanding is that the SINAD numbers are primarily useful in understanding the underlying caliber of the engineering of a product and not necessarily a numerical standard by which we can judge audible sonic performance.
Very true. This hasn’t been fully quantified yet. I can hear and measure differences between a Topping PA5 and Marantz PM-11s2 even though both have good SINAD and the difference is just outside thresholds for audibility (not crazily so).

Just wanted to suggest that the mainstream guys have caught up quite a bit to the boutique guys. Likewise, pure transparency is not always good.

On many occasions, I have found Audyssey and Yamaha's YPAO made changes to the system's sound that was NOT an improvement. I have also heard rather meager systems sound way better than they had a right to after using these schemes. Trust your ears!

With the new MultEQ-X or homebrew Ratbuddysey tool, you now have tremendous capabilities to take Audyssey to the level of a premium room correction. You do need Audyssey XT32 not XT or MultEQ since they are all different capabilities with similar names. With YPAO, same thing. YPAO RSC with 64-bit precision is what you need for something good. It’s not about precision per se but about different generations of processing. Big problem with Yamaha is that they had a window of excellent with the RX-Z11 generation and then a window of excellence with the CX-A5000/CX-A5100 but it has really struggled to succeed since.
 

Fidji

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In that case, do you know if they can play DSD files up to DSD512/22.6 MHz and DXD352.8 kHz that many inexpensive external DAC/universally player can? It's not about sound quality I worry about but playability. I cannot find any information on which DAC chip they use but If Trinnov is about getting the best, it would be nice if they can play such "high resolution" files, even if just for 2 channel contents. The much cheaper Yamaha (I believe Anthem and Arcam too) can play DSD256, Marantz only DSD128 and PCM 24b/192 kHz.
Are there any movies in dsd? We all do understand we are talking about AVP, right? And before anybody asks, no it also does not have analogue pass through, if anybody would insist on hooking up turntable to it.
 
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peng

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Are there any movies in dsd? We all do understand we are talking about AVP, right? And before anybody asks, no it also does not have analogue pass through, if anybody would insist on hooking up turntable on it.

No, I just thought such a high price unit may be able to do well with music as well as movies. You answered my question that I couldn't find the answer from their website. Thank you.
 

voodooless

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In that case, do you know if they can play DSD files up to DSD512/22.6 MHz and DXD352.8 kHz that many inexpensive external DAC/universally player can?
I think it doesn’t to any DSD at all. Just convert to PCM, and enjoy!
 

Mr. Widget

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With the new MultEQ-X or homebrew Ratbuddysey tool, you now have tremendous capabilities to take Audyssey to the level of a premium room correction. You do need Audyssey XT32 not XT or MultEQ since they are all different capabilities with similar names. With YPAO, same thing. YPAO RSC with 64-bit precision is what you need for something good. It’s not about precision per se but about different generations of processing. Big problem with Yamaha is that they had a window of excellent with the RX-Z11 generation and then a window of excellence with the CX-A5000/CX-A5100 but it has really struggled to succeed since.
From my experience with added power comes the possibility of over correcting and making bad choices. As with most things in life a little of a good thing is often better than too much of a good thing. The beauty of systems like DEQX and Dirac Live is the almost infinite possibilities. The downside is the almost infinite possibilities. ;)

I haven't used the latest iteration of MultiEQ-X, but I did use the earlier version where a license was needed along with the pro installer mic/preamp kit. We also used it with their dedicated subwoofer EQ processors back in the day.
 

Fidji

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No, I just thought such a high price unit may be able to do well with music as well as movies. You answered my question that I couldn't find the answer from their website. Thank you.
So, no no DSD playback. I just do not get why is specifically Trinnov such a red rag to everybody - we are talking the price of turntable cartridge or proper projector.
And it does very well with music. DSD converted to PCM and then processed in high res with Optimizer for sure sounds better than any DSD without room correction.

And we do not even need to talk about all those AVP/AvR that need to downsample to 48kHz to even start doing their DRC.

@peng do not get me wrong - your advices re Ratbudyssey helped me a lot some time ago, when Audyssey and Denon were completely not fit for the purpose in their normal version. This thread is just 50 pages of “Denon has 3dB better SINAD” and “it should have SINAD of 1 billion dB for this price”.

And before anybody asks - I have Purifi based amplification and use Gustard with 120dB SINAD as external DAC for subs.
 
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Unground

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My income is far from $#!+ also. :eek:

In my combo home office and media room I don't need that many channels so I am using the Lyngdorf MP40 which supports up to 12 channels and is much less costly. The MP40 is also limited to only three HDMI inputs and the HDMI board is not up to the 2.1 spec either. Another limitation of both Lyngdorf's is that there is no analog input. None of these limitations were deal breakers for me though. I just bought a miniDSP Flex to use as an affordable A to D. (I wanted to add this capability for inputting analog test tones.)

For a less than ideal room, the better room correction you can implement the better... if you can also get creative with elements of decor in the room, that can go a long way towards improving the sound. All three processors that I was mentioning have the power to help massage a room... within reason. FWIW: I have also used Anthem ARC, and most flavors of Audessey, as well as the JBL Synthesis ARCOS system. Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect is by far the simplest to get consistently great results. This combined with the initial manual EQ massaging and post Room Perfect "Voicing" that you can add, it is a very flexible system.

I am using powered speakers in my room and enjoy the system as a secondary 2 channel system as well as my home theater with projector and pull down screen. I never found any of the Marantz, Denon, Sony, or Yamaha AVRs or processors to sound good enough in 2 channel for me to really be satisfied. (Just one person's opinion... I know plenty of folks who seem quite content with one of these processors or AVRs especially with outboard amplification.)

Regarding a second remote, look at Logitech or one of the other universal remotes to simplify control. We deliver our systems with Savant or Crestron for control, but these both have steep programmer learning curves and the hardware is not inexpensive.
Thanks, this is helpful again. I don't need analogue inputs so no problem there. I will certainly try room treatments but I'm not yet clear on what will be possible or acceptable in what is the main living room.

I believe Logitech stopped making Harmony by the way. Tried it once, bought the top of the range in a Black Friday deal. I can usually find my way around even the trickiest of gadgets in seconds but found the Harmony to be too clunky and temperamental. It went back.

Anyway, I'm saving the pennies to upgrade the full system, including hiring an acoustician before I buy anything.

Thanks for the help @Mr. Widget
 

Billy Budapest

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What are they going to do, sing for you? What has that got to do with anything?
The reason why it is relevant is that some people are claiming that the $17,000 or $40,000 worth of value of the Trinnov is based on the access to their tech support, which apparently is very responsive. My point is that for the price, they had better be responsive because the cost is the same as hiring a full time AV tech. If tech support is the reason why someone paid $40,000 for a component, they might as well have hired a full time AV professional.
 

Billy Budapest

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Good for you, I am happy for all the charities you give to generously. Although I always believed, that the urge to let the whole world know how much money you make, is somehow limited to guys with thick golden chains around their necks.

Trinnov is not about value, is about getting the best, that is out there. Simple as that. You know - Patek Philippe kind of purchase.
It was beaten out of me to say that due to people insinuating that this was a “haves” vs “have nots” discussion. I’m not a mega millionaire, I think gold is tacky, and I donate a fair chunk of change to charity.

I understand that some people believe Trinnov is the best. There are other solutions that are far less costly but just as performant. There is no way around it, Trinnov is exorbitantly priced. Other than the few Trinnov owners posting in this thread, who are very vocal (perhaps in an attempt to defend their very costly purchase, or to convince themselves they made a correct purchase) in their support of the brand, nobody is arguing that Trinnov is fairly priced. And nobody seems to have paid list price for their Trinnov. That speaks miles as to what people believe the actual value of Trinnov is.

I’m not knocking Trinnov as a product or a technology. But it is priced far, far out there compared to what you actually get.
 

Billy Budapest

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No this is in a vacation home that I was visiting to upgrade the TV.
I can try that sometime, but honestly, it is captain obvious when you switch a 2.0 source from Direct (two speakers) to Dolby Surround on the 3700 and all sibilants and male vocal bass are gone!

These processors are not measured with DSP engaged annd not measured with their upmixers.
It's my subjective observation that the RMC-1 Dolby Surround 2.0 upmixer is excellent, the center channel sounds as good as it does on the 5.1 source.
This was not true for the Marantz 8801, the Denon 3700, and the Emotiva XMC-1.

Originally, I thought this was due to improvements in the Dolby upmixer but there seems to be more to it than that.
The 3700 Dolby upmixer is not worth using, yuck.

I am not saying that the Trinnov is a good value, just that there are performance differences and features that are simply not measured by SINAD.
I don't know how well the upmixer works on the Trinnov either and I'd hate to buy one only to be disappointed.
I would not buy a Marantz 8805 without hearing its upmixer just in case.

I agree that these multi-thousand-dollar processors should perform far better on SINAD they cost this much and also to have additional headroom for DSP processing.

- Rich
Another sensible post. But prepare yourself for the Trinnov fire brigade! LOL.
 

Madhuski

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And nobody seems to have paid list price for their Trinnov. That speaks miles as to what people believe the actual value of Trinnov is.
this is a silly argument. Pretty much every dealer for every product is willing to offer a discount. I don’t think i’ve paid list price for a piece of audio or video equipment ever.


That aside, you’re certainly into diminishing returns with the trinnov. It’s up to each to determine the value/worth to themselves.

You’ve stated numerous times you don’t find the value there for yourself, which is fine but for a lot of people the value is there.
 
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Fidji

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It was beaten out of me to say that due to people insinuating that this was a “haves” vs “have nots” discussion. I’m not a mega millionaire, I think gold is tacky, and I donate a fair chunk of change to charity.

I understand that some people believe Trinnov is the best. There are other solutions that are far less costly but just as performant. There is no way around it, Trinnov is exorbitantly priced. Other than the few Trinnov owners posting in this thread, who are very vocal (perhaps in an attempt to defend their very costly purchase, or to convince themselves they made a correct purchase) in their support of the brand, nobody is arguing that Trinnov is fairly priced. And nobody seems to have paid list price for their Trinnov. That speaks miles as to what people believe the actual value of Trinnov is.

I’m not knocking Trinnov as a product or a technology. But it is priced far, far out there compared to what you actually get.
I plan to build my ultimate end-game theatre in next 12-18 months (once I finish some personal stuff and retire). Cost , while still important, won’t be really limiting. I envision 13.12.10 setup - if you have knowledge about anything better for the purpose - I will be very grateful.

And coming to your logic re paying list price as being indicative about the value - I have never paid list price for e.g. car, so what does it tell about BMW, that is well known to offer steep discounts.
 

Mr. Widget

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this is a silly argument. Pretty much every dealer for every product is willing to offer a discount. I don’t think i’ve paid list price for a piece of audio or video equipment ever.


That aside, you’re certainly into diminishing returns with the trinnov. It’s up to each to determine the value/worth to themselves.

You’ve stated numerous times you don’t find the value there for yourself, which is fine but for a lot of people the value is there.
While off topic, I'd like to address this.

If by dealer you mean a traditional hi-fi dealer who sells you equipment, one box at a time... that is probably true.

But there is another type of dealer who meets with you in your home, spends the time required to listen to you and discuss your goals. This type of dealer will work with you over weeks, months or years to help you get the most from the equipment you purchase from him, be it a single Sonos One, or a Trinnov and a full blown theater build. These dealers do not typically discount the equipment they sell.
 
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