Denon AVP

[bbgma1234]

Based on the excellent measurements on audiosciencereview, Denon comes out on top over and over.
The frustration is the desire to spend $ towards a processor that has the interconnects desired, along with preserving the quality SNR and distortion of good-to-great digital converters, so we can pass those outputs to balanced XLRs with whatever surround amps and speakers we wish.
It's something manufacturers have known there is a niche crowd for, at least since 2015 for current ideations above 5.1.
So, Denon DID make an AVP:

AVP-A1HDCI(A) - | Denon - US

Denon

www.denon.com

Unless I am interpreting it wrong, it is an AV Surround preamp processor. So, at least at one point, Denon, the one making the best options that require defeating the amps, understood this niche.
They are a larger manufacturer and they were willing to make a non-integrated device.
Emotiva, Anthem, up to Trinnov are all making them, and though many models are being branded but manufactured by the same factories, they are smaller outfits willing to go straight to the separates crowd.
Are there other high-ranking options I'm missing, that aren't super buggy, needing updates, or just trashing the design with converters?

 

[peng]

Based on the excellent measurements on audiosciencereview, Denon comes out on top over and over.
The frustration is the desire to spend $ towards a processor that has the interconnects desired, along with preserving the quality SNR and distortion of good-to-great digital converters, so we can pass those outputs to balanced XLRs with whatever surround amps and speakers we wish.
It's something manufacturers have known there is a niche crowd for, at least since 2015 for current ideations above 5.1.
So, Denon DID make an AVP:

AVP-A1HDCI(A) - | Denon - US

Denon

www.denon.com

Unless I am interpreting it wrong, it is an AV Surround preamp processor. So, at least at one point, Denon, the one making the best options that require defeating the amps, understood this niche.
They are a larger manufacturer and they were willing to make a non-integrated device.
Emotiva, Anthem, up to Trinnov are all making them, and though many models are being branded but manufactured by the same factories, they are smaller outfits willing to go straight to the separates crowd.
Are there other high-ranking options I'm missing, that aren't super buggy, needing updates, or just trashing the design with converters?

The funny thing is, since SU and now Masimo, people think Marantz is the higher quality brand between the two, when Denon had the much higher end AVP and still has the higher end Integrated amp (the class AB type) but that's not sold in North America for some reasons.

At the moment, aside from the ones you mentioned, Marantz is the only one that I can think of, that makes a seemingly excellent AVP. The only thing I am disappointed about it is their use of a DAC IC that is not as good as Anthem's though probably better than some of the Trinnov's. That's academic as even the ES9018K2M has SINAD that is high enough for their matching volume IC and opamps for sonic transparency.

If Denon ever get separated from Marantz, they will almost for sure start marketing their own AVP again.

 

[bbgma1234]

I've found it really interesting comparing Amir's tests to YT "influencer" channels to see who is just enjoying peddling their wares, who is genuinely giving their assessment of features, setup, sound, and who seems to be hearing the sonic equivalent of what the science says.
The reason I mention that, is because it seems more common than I initially would've expected, even the Youtubers are preferring the sound of other processors over the Marantz. Again, that does surprise me.

I think part of what I am learning (there's always room to learn new things!) is how there must be a genuine challenge in resolving power supply (and location in the setup), and programming the best response out of pre-fab high end DACs. The chips can manage changing modes and handling signal without the need for any kind of programming, but clearly how they interconnect, are powered, and decode, and especially the load on them when routed to audio, is a lot harder than what even Marantz has the knowledge of.

Still, Denon being able to act on their independent behalf and going head-to-head in the $1-2K processor-only niche would be awesome to see and hear!
Imagine having something to beat the Emotiva's of the world that have jumped from 1U $1K to 2U $3K+ and still are extremely buggy at best.

 

[MacCali]

Based on the excellent measurements on audiosciencereview, Denon comes out on top over and over.
The frustration is the desire to spend $ towards a processor that has the interconnects desired, along with preserving the quality SNR and distortion of good-to-great digital converters, so we can pass those outputs to balanced XLRs with whatever surround amps and speakers we wish.
It's something manufacturers have known there is a niche crowd for, at least since 2015 for current ideations above 5.1.
So, Denon DID make an AVP:

AVP-A1HDCI(A) - | Denon - US

Denon

www.denon.com

Unless I am interpreting it wrong, it is an AV Surround preamp processor. So, at least at one point, Denon, the one making the best options that require defeating the amps, understood this niche.
They are a larger manufacturer and they were willing to make a non-integrated device.
Emotiva, Anthem, up to Trinnov are all making them, and though many models are being branded but manufactured by the same factories, they are smaller outfits willing to go straight to the separates crowd.
Are there other high-ranking options I'm missing, that aren't super buggy, needing updates, or just trashing the design with converters?

Well this would probably have to do with engineering[prior engineers] and also the AKM fire didn’t occur yet. Denon had phenomenal performance until that went down.

This unit was like 6-7k brand new I believe. What else would you expect

 

[MacCali]

I've found it really interesting comparing Amir's tests to YT "influencer" channels to see who is just enjoying peddling their wares, who is genuinely giving their assessment of features, setup, sound, and who seems to be hearing the sonic equivalent of what the science says.
The reason I mention that, is because it seems more common than I initially would've expected, even the Youtubers are preferring the sound of other processors over the Marantz. Again, that does surprise me.

I think part of what I am learning (there's always room to learn new things!) is how there must be a genuine challenge in resolving power supply (and location in the setup), and programming the best response out of pre-fab high end DACs. The chips can manage changing modes and handling signal without the need for any kind of programming, but clearly how they interconnect, are powered, and decode, and especially the load on them when routed to audio, is a lot harder than what even Marantz has the knowledge of.

Still, Denon being able to act on their independent behalf and going head-to-head in the $1-2K processor-only niche would be awesome to see and hear!
Imagine having something to beat the Emotiva's of the world that have jumped from 1U $1K to 2U $3K+ and still are extremely buggy at best.

Well I think it goes by generation. I am new to the audio world. I started with an AVR at the end of 2020 and sadly every YouTuber/reviewer I came across said Marantz is better.

So I’m guessing there’s been a shift.

I unfortunately bought a Marantz for this reason, but at the same time I got a killer deal on my unit. All I really wanted was 11 channels of what I assumed was quality, for future expansion and was limited as I had no income.

You could say with limited experience I found and still find it phenomenal, at least with 7 or less channels. I recently just upgraded to a processor and honestly feel it is better but for the price difference I could of probably definitely just waited

 

[bbgma1234]

Well I think it goes by generation. I am new to the audio world. I started with an AVR at the end of 2020 and sadly every YouTuber/reviewer I came across said Marantz is better.

So I’m guessing there’s been a shift.

I unfortunately bought a Marantz for this reason, but at the same time I got a killer deal on my unit. All I really wanted was 11 channels of what I assumed was quality, for future expansion and was limited as I had no income.

You could say with limited experience I found and still find it phenomenal, at least with 7 or less channels. I recently just upgraded to a processor and honestly feel it is better but for the price difference I could of probably definitely just waited

I'm glad to hear a positive experience. That's what matters to the user!

 

[MacCali]

I'm glad to hear a positive experience. That's what matters to the user!

Well you know the thing at play here, and to my knowledge which is limited. If I understood what Toole’s research indicates that once you go multi channel it’s very difficult to differentiate performance. Which maybe a factor here.

Second, when it comes to digital input or use of an external dac feeding the AVR the stereo performance is trumped by a 500 dollar NAD integrated, also A/B design.

But from having this unit for so long, the stereo presentation does get better when you use an apple device via AirPlay. Not sure if it’s the digital section of the avr or what. I noticed the similar change in audio when I bought a BDP. Prior to that, streaming via ARC or music playback as mentioned seemed to have this compression occurring for some reason.

 

[peng]

Well this would probably have to do with engineering[prior engineers] and also the AKM fire didn’t occur yet. Denon had phenomenal performance until that went down.

This unit was like 6-7k brand new I believe. What else would you expect

That Denon AVP was listed for $7,500 in 2007/2008. At the time, it was the only AVP ever made that actually were implemented with truly end to end "balanced" differential preamp/dac.

Denon AVP-A1HDCI AV Processor Review

Review: The Denon AVP-A1HDCI AV processor is packed with the latest HD audio and HDMI connectivity and THX Ultra2 Certification. It supports 12 channels of audio and is a technological masterpiece.

www.audioholics.com

 

[bbgma1234]

When they did it, they did it right!

 

[Dobbyisfree]

Genuine question here on Denon products. I use an AVC-X3700 as an AVP. If a true blind test, everything else set up identically and using an AVP (whether a newly released Denon or a Marantz) with the same MultEQ-X file (you can use the same file with different units), the majority of people would be able to tell the difference?

Even if the majority could, I would question if you did the same blind comparison between an AVC-A1H as an AVP and the Cinema AV10 (both about the same cost) how many could tell a difference.

 

[Jason Shep]

Genuine question here on Denon products. I use an AVC-X3700 as an AVP. If a true blind test, everything else set up identically and using an AVP (whether a newly released Denon or a Marantz) with the same MultEQ-X file (you can use the same file with different units), the majority of people would be able to tell the difference?

Even if the majority could, I would question if you did the same blind comparison between an AVC-A1H as an AVP and the Cinema AV10 (both about the same cost) how many could tell a difference.

I agree with you.
Having previously owned the Denon AVP-A1HD processor, then subsequently, a much lower tier Denon AVR-X3600 but with a Lyngdorf TDAI integrated amp doing front L/R & Bass management/room EQ, I preferred the x3600 Lyngdorf combo.
An Avr with its onboard amps driving surround channels & pre outs for LCR makes a lot of economic sense & is how I plan to add multi channel to my own system again in the future.

 

[peng]

Genuine question here on Denon products. I use an AVC-X3700 as an AVP. If a true blind test, everything else set up identically and using an AVP (whether a newly released Denon or a Marantz) with the same MultEQ-X file (you can use the same file with different units), the majority of people would be able to tell the difference?

Even if the majority could, I would question if you did the same blind comparison between an AVC-A1H as an AVP and the Cinema AV10 (both about the same cost) how many could tell a difference.

Based on my own experience with comparing an AVR-X3500H (no typo just the cheap little 3500) to my Parasound Halo, Bryston and Cambridge Audio preamp, I would say the majority (if not all...) of people would not be able to tell the difference if they don't know which one is playing. Of course that assumes the duts are not driven anywhere to their clipping point and we are using high quality music contents, and high quality speakers are used. For movie tracks, I think a good proportion of people will hear a difference, depending on the specific contents used.

 

[Frank207be]

Genuine question here on Denon products. I use an AVC-X3700 as an AVP. If a true blind test, everything else set up identically and using an AVP (whether a newly released Denon or a Marantz) with the same MultEQ-X file (you can use the same file with different units), the majority of people would be able to tell the difference?

Even if the majority could, I would question if you did the same blind comparison between an AVC-A1H as an AVP and the Cinema AV10 (both about the same cost) how many could tell a difference.

The AV10 has the HDAM circuitry that the AVC-A1H lacks? Today I tried my Icepower IceEdge 1200AS/2 power amp and I won't be disconnecting it again as I really like the sound quality improvements.

Edit: I wanted to add that I had the same power amp connected between my previous Pioneer SC-LX901 and speakers and the detail & transparancy that I'm experiencing now simply wasn't there with the Pioneer so the quality of the AVR still matters a lot.

 

[MacCali]

The AV10 has the HDAM circuitry that the AVC-A1H lacks? Today I tried my Icepower IceEdge 1200AS/2 power amp and I won't be disconnecting it again as I really like the sound quality improvements.

Edit: I wanted to add that I had the same power amp connected between my previous Pioneer SC-LX901 and speakers and the detail & transparancy that I'm experiencing now simply wasn't there with the Pioneer so the quality of the AVR still matters a lot.

It’s a little bit more than that, you must view these as computers and the computation and output or data which what we hear as music or sound during a movie probably plays a roll more than the sound quality unless it’s total crap vs a great amp.

I went from a Marantz 7013, my first ever AVR and recently upgraded to a AVM70 and the AVM70 is better but I would say it’s the sound quality that got a huge jump ie stereo sound quality. But I do feel it does a better job at basically further separating or isolating each speaker which makes the experience better.

*Both using RCA output, I have yet to try balanced as my external amps are only SE inputs.

In addition not considering the benefit of more power per channel

 

[mongobot]

Denon was poised to release a more budget friendly AVP shortly after the AVP-A1HDCI but killed it just before release unfortunately:

New Denon pre/pro (AVP-CIX?) based on AVR-4310

It would seem that Denon are getting ready to announce a pre-amp/processor based on the new AVR-4310. It does not seem to be simply the 4310 with the amps ripped out though as, according to the document below, it has balanced connectors for line out and stereo balanced line in. I wonder if...

www.avforums.com