• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Trinnov Altitude 16 Review (AV Processor)

Madhuski

Member
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
75
Likes
61
While off topic, I'd like to address this.

If by dealer you mean a traditional hi-fi dealer who sells you equipment, one box at a time... that is probably true.

But there is another type of dealer who meets with you in your home, spends the time required to listen to you and discuss your goals. This type of dealer will work with you over weeks, months or years to help you get the most from the equipment you purchase from him, be it a single Sonos One, or a Trinnov and a full blown theater build. These dealers do not typically discount the equipment they sell.

I disagree. Before I went with Alcons speakers. I met with a local installer who did Wisdom speakers. We met, talked about my goals, and listened to some Wisdom's. He later wrote up a proposal for the entire install and tuning of the speakers. Again, there was a significant discount in it.

I suppose I can’t speak for every dealer or installer, but I have yet to find one that didn’t offer a discount.


edit: but all this is beside the point in regards to getting a trinnov below msrp being unique to that particular device
 
Last edited:

Mr. Widget

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2022
Messages
1,146
Likes
1,697
Location
SF Bay Area
I plan to build my ultimate end-game theatre in next 12-18 months (once I finish some personal stuff and retire). Cost , while still important, won’t be really limiting. I envision 13.12.10 setup - if you have knowledge about anything better for the purpose - I will be very grateful.
13.12.10? Are you using the Atmos numerical designation with 12 subwoofers and 10 ceiling speakers? How large will this room be?

I have done some very impressive three row theaters with 9.4.6 and due to acoustic requirements one had 9.7.6. In many of these cases, we added additional side speakers, but they were still designated as part of the nine speakers as far as the surround mix was concerned. However these added side channels had discrete power with unique delay and EQ settings.
 

Mr. Widget

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2022
Messages
1,146
Likes
1,697
Location
SF Bay Area
I disagree. Before I went with Alcons speakers. I met with a local installer who did Wisdom speakers. We met, talked about my goals, and listened to some Wisdom's. He later wrote up a proposal for the entire install and tuning of the speakers. Again, there was a significant discount in it.

I suppose I can’t speak for every dealer or installer, but I have yet to find one that didn’t offer a discount.
Of course you are right.

But consider this, if he is offering a discount on part of the project, then he will likely need to cut back somewhere else. You can always negotiate, but at the end of the day he still needs to remain profitable. When a piece of gear fails two days after installation and he has to overnight a new one or supply a temporary replacement (recalibrating your room for the replacement) and then returning to reinstall the original unit after repairs... the profit margin shrinks rapidly.
 

Billy Budapest

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2019
Messages
1,810
Likes
2,674
While off topic, I'd like to address this.

If by dealer you mean a traditional hi-fi dealer who sells you equipment, one box at a time... that is probably true.

But there is another type of dealer who meets with you in your home, spends the time required to listen to you and discuss your goals. This type of dealer will work with you over weeks, months or years to help you get the most from the equipment you purchase from him, be it a single Sonos One, or a Trinnov and a full blown theater build. These dealers do not typically discount the equipment they sell.

For new construction—whether an entire new home or an addition—I can see the cost of home theater design and equipment being a line item in contract which is paid for via financing (whether by a construction loan, HELOC, or other financial vehicle) and is less “visible” to the purchaser. Even if not financed, construction costs are typically paid on a schedule and not in a lump sum. So I can see HT processors being considered part of the job cost as a whole and not really thought of as an individual item. Of course, different bids could list different prices for the same equipment, or perhaps specify different equipment depending on which brands the HT contractor is a dealer for.

In your experience, do your customers elicit multiple bids for HT design and construction? (Right now I am constructing a home gym in a section of my basement which earlier was not habitable space. We received multiple bids and wound up going with the middle bid for various reasons, price being only one of them. Wondering if HT consulting is similar.)
 
Last edited:

Fidji

Active Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
259
Likes
545
13.12.10? Are you using the Atmos numerical designation with 12 subwoofers and 10 ceiling speakers? How large will this room be?

I have done some very impressive three row theaters with 9.4.6 and due to acoustic requirements one had 9.7.6. In many of these cases, we added additional side speakers, but they were still designated as part of the nine speakers as far as the surround mix was concerned. However these added side channels had discrete power with unique delay and EQ settings.

2 rows/6 seater 65 sqm [is part of an old barn], 3.3 meter thigh, 5 meters wide scope screen.
9.x.x with 2 additional screen speakers and 2 surrounds,
4 BIG subs on LFE duty and 8 for Bass management
8 Height + Center Height and Top

But still tempted with smth like this -

1666118713283.png


Now in my 32sqm - 9.5.6, that will become 9.5.7 [adding Center Height], 4 subs on LFE/Bass Management Duty, 1 dedicated to C.
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
3,868
Likes
5,954
While off topic, I'd like to address this.

If by dealer you mean a traditional hi-fi dealer who sells you equipment, one box at a time... that is probably true.

But there is another type of dealer who meets with you in your home, spends the time required to listen to you and discuss your goals. This type of dealer will work with you over weeks, months or years to help you get the most from the equipment you purchase from him, be it a single Sonos One, or a Trinnov and a full blown theater build. These dealers do not typically discount the equipment they sell.

Yes, but to your point, even at minimum wage the number of hours spent for these full service dealerships *is* the discount. This is especially true for home visits.

The tough part is that a lot of these truly knowledgeable dealers have dwindled.
 

Mr. Widget

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2022
Messages
1,146
Likes
1,697
Location
SF Bay Area
For new construction—whether an entire new home or an addition—I can see the cost of home theater design and equipment being a line item in contract which is paid for via financing (whether by a construction loan, HELOC, or other financial vehicle) and is less “visible” to the purchaser. Even if not financed, construction costs are typically paid on a schedule and not in a lump sum. So I can see HT processors being considered part of the job cost as a whole and not really thought of as an individual item. Of course, different bids could list different prices for the same equipment, or perhaps specify different equipment depending on which brands the HT contractor is a dealer for.

In your experience, do your customers elicit multiple bids for HT design and construction? (Right now I am constructing a home gym in a section of my basement which earlier was not habitable space. We received multiple bids and wound up going with the middle bid for various reasons, price being only one of them. Wondering if HT consulting is similar.)
Off the top of my head I would say that we are in a competitive bid situation about 50% of the time. We are probably never the lowest cost option and almost always we are among the highest.

We are usually recommended by the client's builder, architect, or friends and associates of the client. These recommendations along with the personal interaction that we have with the client or their representatives is usually enough to close the deal. We also have been in the industry for decades and have a lot of repeat business. I just wrapped up a second theater for a client whose previous theater we designed and built in their last home several years ago.

Even though we are working on projects at the highest end (a complete home theater may be well north of $1M including the build out) the phrase, "cost is no object" is never uttered or assumed. Everyone wants value. We do our best to give our customers the performance they want at the lowest possible cost.

Regarding line items etc. Our proposals are very detailed and include every AppleTV and any other items that go into the project.
 

Mr. Widget

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2022
Messages
1,146
Likes
1,697
Location
SF Bay Area
2 rows/6 seater 65 sqm [is part of an old barn], 3.3 meter thigh, 5 meters wide scope screen.
9.x.x with 2 additional screen speakers and 2 surrounds,
4 BIG subs on LFE duty and 8 for Bass management
8 Height + Center Height and Top

But still tempted with smth like this -

Now in my 32sqm - 9.5.6, that will become 9.5.7 [adding Center Height], 4 subs on LFE/Bass Management Duty, 1 dedicated to C.
In my opinion, buy fewer but better speakers.

I think that the left and right wides are important (especially with a larger screen) and getting the bass dialed in by testing different layouts in room simulations, but many of those extra speakers will not really buy you much in terms of movie enjoyment once the lights are down and the film is playing.
 
Last edited:

Fidji

Active Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
259
Likes
545
In my opinion, buy fewer but better speakers.

I think that the left and right wides are important (especially with a larger screen) and getting the bass dialed in by testing different layouts in room simulations, but many of those extra speakers will not really buy you much in terms of movie enjoyment once the lights are down and the film is playing.

yes, I will take my time, I expect the real construction to start somewhere beginning 2024 to have it ready for summer. Now I am in the process of getting some permits, so you never know. I will for sure hire somebody like you very soon in the project phase - I will be doing complete build-in [if this is the right word] - This is an old stone brick barn 140sqm overall.

I am now looking in the direction of smith like Procella Audio + Trinnov combo with GIK acoustics room treatments. I did not discuss it with any pro until now, so I might get corrected. This is just me reading Trinnov Speaker Placement Guide and I arrived to this speaker count. My approach to it is not have "enough" but "as much as possible"

My current setup is actually overgrown Stereo that morphed into HT, based on MartinLogans.
 
Last edited:

SamR

Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2022
Messages
33
Likes
63
I have ALWAYS thought of adding more of everything=the disease of this addiction.

There is an owners forum for the trinnov. Many posters have thousands of posts under their name and a larger number of speakers in dedicated LARGE home theaters in excess of 20 speakers. To summarize: multiple speakers is desired when there are many rows of seats at different heights to face the screen.

If it is a single home room with only one row of seats then 7.2.4 suffices. Indeed front wides (the +2 in 9) are not used in most codecs or upmixers but some of us cannot stand to NOT have them. I have resisted using a rare trait in our hobby called logic.

Regarding atmos most posters with one row of seats hear little gain from the back atmos (the +2 in 6) speakers. So they stick with top/front speakers and then top middle speakers.

If I was to add speakers right now, it would be another one or two subwoofers to get to a 7.4.4 system. But I would have to get creative in where to put the fourth sub. I’m holding out until Perlisten comes out with their ported subs though. Nothing satisfies like too many subs.

Let me provide a real world example of signal to noise of the Denon 8500 vs the Trinnov Altitude 32 (16 should be the same): with the Denon, I always had to manipulate volume up/down - passages were either too quiet, so I would bump up the volume, and then would become too loud… each movie would require multiple adjustments. Calibration was done with Audyssey and checked/tweaked with a Radio Shack SPL meter.

With the Trinnov - no longer. Quiet passages are suitably quiet and loud are appropriately loud.

So you can say what you want about the measured SNR (although I am sceptical of the measurement); but in real-world listening, it doesn’t have the dynamic range of the Trinnov. Speakers are sensitive Klipsch and were not changed. Amp with the Trinnov was a Class D (NC 500).
 

Billy Budapest

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2019
Messages
1,810
Likes
2,674
Let me provide a real world example of signal to noise of the Denon 8500 vs the Trinnov Altitude 32 (16 should be the same): with the Denon, I always had to manipulate volume up/down - passages were either too quiet, so I would bump up the volume, and then would become too loud… each movie would require multiple adjustments. Calibration was done with Audyssey and checked/tweaked with a Radio Shack SPL meter.

With the Trinnov - no longer. Quiet passages are suitably quiet and loud are appropriately loud.

So you can say what you want about the measured SNR (although I am sceptical of the measurement); but in real-world listening, it doesn’t have the dynamic range of the Trinnov. Speakers are sensitive Klipsch and were not changed. Amp with the Trinnov was a Class D (NC 500).
Do you realize that the behavior you’ve described with the volume knob indicates greater dynamic range reproduction by the Denon and lesser dynamic range performance with the Trinnov? Or maybe on the Trinnov you have dynamic range compression engaged— some sort of “night setting” or loudness compensation curve?
 

GalZohar

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2021
Messages
442
Likes
216
Neither the Denon nor the Trivnnov should have any manipulation of the dynamic range if they don't clip and don't enable any compression processing (Dynamic Volume in Denon, which would have created the opposite effect of what you are describing). As your claim has no technical basis and is purely subjective, I'd say it requires some more proof than "that's what I think I heard" to qualify as an objective fact rather than biased subjective psychological effect.
 

SamR

Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2022
Messages
33
Likes
63
Do you realize that the behavior you’ve described with the volume knob indicates greater dynamic range reproduction by the Denon and lesser dynamic range performance with the Trinnov? Or maybe on the Trinnov you have dynamic range compression engaged— some sort of “night setting” or loudness compensation curve?
Dynamic compression is definitely not engaged; I never use it.

The point is that the range between quietest and loudest passages is compressed on the Denon - if you set it such that a whisper sounds like a whisper, then a loud passage does not sound loud enough. I guess I didn’t describe it clearly above. If you set it so that an explosion sounds realistic, whispers are too loud.

Also important to add: is the benefit of the Trinnov for Smaller rooms with fewer speakers — this is where it really shines. The Virtualization feature sounds like a gimmick but it’s anything but. I have a 4.1.2 setup and there are no gaps in the surround effects (just played the latest Atmos and THD demo discs again).
As I’ve said many times, the majority of enthusiasts should buy Fewer speakers, spending the same total amount on fewer amps and speakers = better sound. And rather than upgrading an AVR every few years, get an Altitude (for the price of ~3 mid-priced AVRs) and enjoy the Virtualization and other features that you’ll never get with a normal AVR.
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
3,868
Likes
5,954
As I’ve said many times, the majority of enthusiasts should buy Fewer speakers, spending the same total amount on fewer amps and speakers = better sound. And rather than upgrading an AVR every few years, get an Altitude (for the price of ~3 mid-priced AVRs) and enjoy the Virtualization and other features that you’ll never get with a normal AVR.

This is one of the features of Yamaha’s Cinema DSP. 90% of the settings are the silly reverb boosted modes but for movies, it does have great virtualization. Only Trinnov and Yamaha YPAO RSC have the microphones that can measure angles and distances.

Every other AVR is unable to distinguish between an LCR lined up shoulder to shoulder that is 10 feet from your listening position, dead center, or LCRs positioned at 9, 12, and 3 o’clock 10 feet from you.
 

Beast76

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2021
Messages
51
Likes
39
Dynamic compression is definitely not engaged; I never use it.

The point is that the range between quietest and loudest passages is compressed on the Denon - if you set it such that a whisper sounds like a whisper, then a loud passage does not sound loud enough. I guess I didn’t describe it clearly above. If you set it so that an explosion sounds realistic, whispers are too loud.

Also important to add: is the benefit of the Trinnov for Smaller rooms with fewer speakers — this is where it really shines. The Virtualization feature sounds like a gimmick but it’s anything but. I have a 4.1.2 setup and there are no gaps in the surround effects (just played the latest Atmos and THD demo discs again).
As I’ve said many times, the majority of enthusiasts should buy Fewer speakers, spending the same total amount on fewer amps and speakers = better sound. And rather than upgrading an AVR every few years, get an Altitude (for the price of ~3 mid-priced AVRs) and enjoy the Virtualization and other features that you’ll never get with a normal AVR.
You realize you can objectively measure what you “didn’t describe clearly above” (and said the exact opposite of after you realized your description actually implied worse performance)? The likelihood of your processor effecting dynamic range in any meaningful way (without some type of compression present) are almost zero. Your speaker/amp combo - absolutely. But not the processor.
 

SamR

Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2022
Messages
33
Likes
63
You realize you can objectively measure what you “didn’t describe clearly above” (and said the exact opposite of after you realized your description actually implied worse performance)? The likelihood of your processor effecting dynamic range in any meaningful way (without some type of compression present) are almost zero. Your speaker/amp combo - absolutely. But not the processor.
The processor’s DAC also boosts the signal. DACs are not uniform in what voltage they put out. And the amp is built into the Denon isn’t it. So yeah, the processor will affect exactly what I wrote! (Try again?)
 

Beast76

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2021
Messages
51
Likes
39
The processor’s DAC also boosts the signal. DACs are not uniform in what voltage they put out. And the amp is built into the Denon isn’t it. So yeah, the processor will affect exactly what I wrote! (Try again?)
What are you saying the Trinnov’s DACs are doing, exactly? Accurately representing the dynamic range of the source material - or artificially altering the dynamic range by “boosting the signal”? And you’re arguing that “boosting the signal” is a good thing? You just keep getting better and better . The Trinnov is an awesome processor for exactly none of the reasons you’re providing. You can just say you like and can’t scientifically explain why - no one is going to fault you for that.
 

Fidji

Active Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
259
Likes
545
Dynamic compression is definitely not engaged; I never use it.

The point is that the range between quietest and loudest passages is compressed on the Denon - if you set it such that a whisper sounds like a whisper, then a loud passage does not sound loud enough. I guess I didn’t describe it clearly above. If you set it so that an explosion sounds realistic, whispers are too loud.

Also important to add: is the benefit of the Trinnov for Smaller rooms with fewer speakers — this is where it really shines. The Virtualization feature sounds like a gimmick but it’s anything but. I have a 4.1.2 setup and there are no gaps in the surround effects (just played the latest Atmos and THD demo discs again).
As I’ve said many times, the majority of enthusiasts should buy Fewer speakers, spending the same total amount on fewer amps and speakers = better sound. And rather than upgrading an AVR every few years, get an Altitude (for the price of ~3 mid-priced AVRs) and enjoy the Virtualization and other features that you’ll never get with a normal AVR.
Actually where Trinnov really shines is with a LOT of speakers.
This is where you hear real difference to the others. 9.6.7 upmix of 5.1 is something else. Yes, still itching what to do with those spare 2 channels…..

I think most of the differences in performance can be attributed to Optimizer and not DAC.
 

sarumbear

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 15, 2020
Messages
7,604
Likes
7,314
Location
UK
Actually where Trinnov really shines is with a LOT of speakers.
This is where you hear real difference to the others.
I thought that a no brainier. Why would you otherwise buy a processor with 20 outputs?
 

Billy Budapest

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2019
Messages
1,810
Likes
2,674
Dynamic compression is definitely not engaged; I never use it.

The point is that the range between quietest and loudest passages is compressed on the Denon - if you set it such that a whisper sounds like a whisper, then a loud passage does not sound loud enough. I guess I didn’t describe it clearly above. If you set it so that an explosion sounds realistic, whispers are too loud.
Thank you for the clarification—it is actually the opposite of what I had thought you originally said. It sounds like either some sort of dynamic range compression has been applied like a “night” setting or “loudness” setting (unknowingly, I guess), or perhaps that the Denon does not have enough power to drive your speakers (although you would hear clipping if that would be the case).
 
Top Bottom